NCBA Championships Recaps and Comments

Conversations about the fabulous art of color guard, both field and court

Moderators: laurab, Gallagher, guardthepiccolo

newguy
New Recruit
New Recruit
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:23 am

NCBA Championships Recaps and Comments

Post by newguy » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:15 am

So that was a lot of fun...
Some really impressive shows all around.

What did everyone think, all divisions, results, anything particularly remarkable. Comments---Concerns

tao707
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:05 am
Location: vallejo, ca
Contact:

Re: NCBA Championships Recaps and Comments

Post by tao707 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:12 pm

Wasn't their the whole day. But was able to record middle schools and r posted on my YouTube page

Psalm 56
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 664
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:00 am

Re: NCBA Championships Recaps and Comments

Post by Psalm 56 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:06 pm

Concerns?? Looking at the results...I think there probably could be one or two guards who were in the "wrong divisions." I do think we are getting to the point where an evaluation show needs to happen and/or a "pre-lims-to-champs" at Foothill (BAY AREA REGIONAL) and Elk Grove (Sacramento/Nevada Regional)....Can't make either show...GO TO THE FRIDAY NIGHT SHOW THAT WEEKEND. Top three (in EACH DIVISION) from FOOTHILL & ELK GROVE and THE FIRST PLACES FROM (each division) FRIDAY NIGHT SHOW are invited to attend. Champs is too long of a day (that can affect adjudicating) and I believe those who place at Friday/Saturday shows weekend prior to champs will more often than not be the ones who were consistently good ALL SEASON!!! We should be awarding consistency through the season. Those who don't place at Friday show or Foothill/Elk Grove...those monies/fees to be in champs will be applied to fees for the following season. Just an idea...

oldsole84
New Recruit
New Recruit
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:38 am

Re: NCBA Championships Recaps and Comments

Post by oldsole84 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:21 am

comments -
clean - Santa Cruz and Vanden
entertaining - Benicia
non-stop - MIT and Armijo
good rotations - Laguna Creek and Vanden
pleasant surprise in novice - Nevada Union
improved - Del Oro
Novice and Intermediate Groups with technique were a plus
Good to see a guard return to the circuit giving something different to watch - Fairfield

concerns -
Random acts of Color Guard
Random acts of Tossing
Not enough groups with technique
The shrinking scholastic/open classes and the over population of novice/intermediate classes
Too bad they're inactive - Jesse Bethel

newguy
New Recruit
New Recruit
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:23 am

Re: NCBA Championships Recaps and Comments

Post by newguy » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:52 am

The one thing that really got me was seeing some of the inconsistencies in the double judging panel. It is great to have multiple judges watching the same caption. It is fine for those judges to score groups differently, but you would expect that the judges would at least be close to agreeing on the order they would rank the groups. If they aren't, what message does that give to our kids.
Here is just one example of what I'm talking about.... lets look at the Advanced Guard Division:

One of the possible combinations of judges (Movement 2, Equipment 1, and GE1) had this order: (I put their actual finish placement in parentheses)

82.2- Santa Cruz (Champs)
76.4- Damonte Ranch (1st)
74.8- American Canyon (10th)
74.6- Reno (4th)/Franklin (5th)
74.4- Del Oro (3rd)
74.2- San Mateo (7th)
74.0- Rodriguez (6th)/McClatchy (T8th)/Buchach Colony (2nd)
73.8- McQueen (T8th)

The remaining judging panel (Movement 1, Equipment 2, and GE 2) would have had the following order:

83.0- Santa Cruz
75.6- Buchach Colony
75.5- Del Oro
75.2- Damonte Ranch
74.5- Reno
74.1- Rodriguez
73.7- McQueen/Franklin
73.5- McClatchy/San Mateo
72.6- American Canyon

Check out the differences in placements:
Other than Santa Cruz nobody stayed the same... AND:
Buchach Colony from 1st place to a three way tied for 7th.
American Canyon from 2nd place to 10th.

Whether or not we agree with the order, you would think that trained certified judges would at least have some sort of agreement on where a group should rank within a caption.

Examples:
Damonte HS Movement Judge 1- 1st Place, Judge 2- 5th Place
American Canyon HS Movement Judge 1- 7th Place, Judge 2- 2nd Place
McQueen HS Equipment Judge 1- 7th Place, Judge 2- 3rd Place
American Canyon HS Equipment Judge 1- 4th Place, Judge 2- 9th Place
Del Oro HS GE Judge 1- 6th Place, Judge 2- 2nd Place
Franklin HS GE Judge 1- 1st Place, Judge 2- 4th Place

Questions:
Again, I wouldn't expect everything to match... but should there really be that big of a difference if our judges are watching the same group of shows?
What could cause such large difference of opinion from two judges within the same caption?
Are politics involved? If so, who do I talk to about getting in the right circle!?!? :wink:

User avatar
JenKozy
Section Leader
Section Leader
Posts: 1277
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:22 am
Location: Sacramento, Ca.

Re: NCBA Championships Recaps and Comments

Post by JenKozy » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:40 pm

Conspiracy theory here... And believe me, I always give credit where credit is due. However, I find it VERY interesting that in Advanced, Scholastic AND Open, the Champions in each division are run by guard judges. I also feel that an Evals show should happen, however I have been saying this for YEARS. The over crowding of the lower classes is uncalled for. I feel that instead of just making people move down, they should force people up instead of asking. There are group(s) sandbagging and it is upsetting to see truly talented groups getting buried by these groups at shows when the numbers clearly call for a move up. When a group scores FOUR points ahead of the next group in their class, and is less than a point behind first in the class above, and I am not talking the lower classes. I am talking the top two, there is something CLEARLY wrong with this system. And after 12 years beating my head against the mighty wall that is NCBA, I am seriously campaigning moving to CCGC & CVGPC. Where yes, there are still those politics and their own set of problems, however, I will have tapes that are worth listening to, and will have people evaluating my group that have their finger on the pulse of the activity, instead of someone who has not touched equipment or stepped foot in a studio since 1970.

I know I am not the only one, however, let the blasting begin.

<steps off soap box>
I am NOT too old for this!

I'd rather be Dreaming... in a tree.

Psalm 56
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 664
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:00 am

Re: NCBA Championships Recaps and Comments

Post by Psalm 56 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:03 pm

:(

newguy
New Recruit
New Recruit
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:23 am

Re: NCBA Championships Recaps and Comments

Post by newguy » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:35 pm

On that point... should groups that score 6.8 points ahead of the next placed group stay in the same division? Advanced Guard Champs to first place spread was 82.6 to 75.8.
How does that happen...

The winning group (which was great by the way, had a really solid performance) was Santa Cruz. As far as other NCBA shows this season, they were at Granada (alone in their class and no scholastic guards present either) that is the only event they attended according to the NCBA results page, which are missing a few results... Foothill (were they there?), Benicia (they weren't there), Armijo (???) What 3 shows did they go to qualify for champs? Why weren't they promoted to scholastic sometime before championships?

What if there was an objective requirement for getting bumped, instead of it just being a subjective matter.
For example, if at any contest a group scores more than X number of points away from the next highest group then that group would be advanced to the next division level.
Or, if any group scores within X number of points from the 1st place score of the division above theirs, that group is automatically promoted to the higher division effective at the next contest.

Objective, clearly defined standards for being bumped from one class to another... sounds like a good idea. Can we draw up a proposal for a NCBA board meeting?

User avatar
Hostrauser
Support Staff
Support Staff
Posts: 7984
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 6:46 am
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Contact:

Re: NCBA Championships Recaps and Comments

Post by Hostrauser » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:10 pm

newguy wrote:The winning group (which was great by the way, had a really solid performance) was Santa Cruz. As far as other NCBA shows this season, they were at Granada (alone in their class and no scholastic guards present either) that is the only event they attended according to the NCBA results page, which are missing a few results... Foothill (were they there?), Benicia (they weren't there), Armijo (???) What 3 shows did they go to qualify for champs?
Armijo on 3/3
Granada on 3/17
Foothill on 3/24

newguy
New Recruit
New Recruit
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:23 am

Re: NCBA Championships Recaps and Comments

Post by newguy » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:44 pm

Cool. Does anyone have the recaps from Armijo or Foothill?

Again I'm not calling out Santa Cruz they were great. Just wonder how they finished at those two comps and if they might should have been bumped at one of those two.

Was there anyone at Armijo Granada or Foothill that got bumped? Was there anyone there making decisions to bump people or not?

Other than Mr Nielson who makes that call?

User avatar
crickett
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 653
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:26 am
Location: Santa Cruz

Re: NCBA Championships Recaps and Comments

Post by crickett » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:43 am

Hello,

I am the director from Santa Cruz.

We went to Armijo, Livermore, Granada and champs. We had to cancel Foothill due to financial reasons.

Let me make something clear. These are the descriptions of the divisions:
Novice – High School Guard programs with limited experience and rudimentary level of equipment facility.
Intermediate – High School Guard programs with limited to moderate
experience and a rudimentary to median level of facility.
Amateur – High School Guard programs with moderate experience and median level of equipment facility.
Scholastic – High School Guard programs with advanced experience and
advanced level of equipment facility.
Open – High School Guard programs with sophisticated competitive units with complex equipment facility and body movement.

The students in my guard are:
2 seniors with three years experience
1 junior with two years
2 sophomores with one year, 1 sophomore with none
6 freshmen with no experience

6 of these kids are band kids who did not do fall guard and their first handling of equipment was in December to audition for winter season. Three of our fall guard had to change classes due to scheduling conflicts.

We have no feeder program at all. The instructor who is a judge in the circuit, wrote work to match their ability level. They can not handle the expectations of the next division up. The judging sheets clearly show the different expectations at each level. What he is good at is getting them to perform, so easy simple work looks good and therefore makes it look like they should be in the next division. Also note that he does it all by himself. In many cases the groups above us have several instructors.

There have been many years we have been pushed into a higher division because he a good instructor. I insisted we stay, the numbers we received at Livermore, Granada and Armijo back that up. It was in the Advanced division on the score sheets. Don't accuse him of anything accuse me. The Livermore panel came to the Granada show to watch after they were done judging, they had a discussion after the second show and decided based on those two performances we were in the right place.

My kids worked their tails off. They earned it, it wasn't politics. It was work ethic.

There are problems in every circuit. You just have to decide which ones you are willing to deal with.

newguy
New Recruit
New Recruit
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:23 am

Re: NCBA Championships Recaps and Comments

Post by newguy » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:44 am

Hello Crickett,

Like I said your guard won the advanced division hands down... I don't think anyone would argue that they had the best performance of the evening.
Congratulations- they did a fantastic job.

My guard is very similar, no seniors, no feeder, very young inexperienced group of kids... I would have done the same thing to try to keep them in the division where they would be more successful. The gap between your score and the bottom scholastic score was substantial, not as substantial as the gap from your score to the next in the advanced division, but still...

Seems like you guys were in a class all of your own! It is a testimate to your performance, that you were the only group that was able to earn the unanimous approval of the entire judging panel.

As my name indicates I'm new to NCBA. My questions are more about systemic issues than individual groups. I am just trying to figure out what the process is and how some of these seemingly odd situations (scoring inconsistencies) happen so that I can try to avoid them in the future.

I sincerely enjoyed your group and am truly happy for them- they definitely deserved their placement.

M. Mills
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 7:45 pm

Re: NCBA Championships Recaps and Comments

Post by M. Mills » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:22 am

Hello-

I don’t usually post on this site, but I often read what is being posted, as do many other colorguard judges.

I am disheartened when I read or hear that people, whether directly or indirectly, imply that the some of the schools this season won the championship in their division simply because of politics. I will echo Mrs. Latham’s (crickett) words when I say that ALL of the kids that competed worked their tails off.

I am also bothered when this site turns into a “judging bashing session” or an “I hate NCBA rampage”.

It is important to know that over the past couple years, there has been an increased level of training for the colorguard judges. The trainings have included in depth sessions in each caption and numbers management. Please be reminded that there is a process in NCBA that deals with judging concerns. There have been concerns this season brought to the attention of the VP of Judges and Colorguard Committee; these concerns were followed up with very promptly.

I know that we can all agree that NCBA may have flaws, but there is not an organization out there that doesn’t. I believe that NCBA is taking strides to move in the right direction. Try to be part of the change, rather than only posting on this site, especially anonymously. Try to use the proper channels to communicate with the people in NCBA who are capable of influencing change.

I’m not necessarily implying that the points that are made in this forum are invalid. What I am implying, however, is that there is a more productive way of communicating your concerns.

Please know that I have a lot of respect for all of the colorguard instructors out there, as I know how hard we all work with our kids. If you would like to reply to this, feel free to PM or email me, as I don’t wish to have a back and forth exchange in the public forum.

Very Sincerely,

Marcus Mills
NCBA Colorguard Adjudicator
NCBA Colorguard Committee Head

Psalm 56
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 664
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:00 am

Re: NCBA Championships Recaps and Comments

Post by Psalm 56 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:12 am

Very enlightening discourse. I appreciate the candor. I do hope that NCBA will continue to take the time to listen to its membership. I do know some of NCBA's members do feel a sense of nepotism is happening. Now, I do not expect for those who are judges/clinicians/ board members/festivals hosts to have to "pay" some sort of penalty by being judged differently and/or more critically.

What I expect is for an NCBA "official" to acknowledge the member(s)' frustrations. For example, on the percussion side, I would have taken the time to listen to the band director whose drum line was first place by one judge and FOUTH place (in the same caption) BY 100 POINTS???!!!

My perception...there does seem to be some defensiveness being displayed (which I get...I get it) on this site. So, let's defend our programs and at the same time have empathy for those schools who really have a valid point that there were some mistakes made that day and during season that negatively impacted their results!! Someime all it takes is "I understand and we will work on it." That hasn' been said to some members.

guard matey
New Recruit
New Recruit
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:33 am
Location: norcal

Re: NCBA Championships Recaps and Comments

Post by guard matey » Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:59 am

Hello,

I am the guard instructor for Santa Cruz.

I'm posting here today not to defend my position or my program (Cricket already did that). Rather, I thought I'd share some insight on some key factors.

The instructors for Armijo, Benicia, Foothill, MIT, Vanden, Del Oro, and yes Santa Cruz all have representation in the judging community. Only Armijo, MIT, and Santa Cruz won their divisions, which means only 3 of the 7 won the championship title. What perhaps is more to the point is that every one of these programs is intimately familiar with the scoresheets, and the judging process, which indeed makes a difference in planning out their programs. It is perhaps an unfair advantage, BUT in NCBA *anyone* who wishes to become a judge is welcome to attend the trainings, submit practice commentaries, and apprentice. The discussions we have at the trainings provide a side benefit: Your own program will improve, due to the knowledge you gain. Training programs will improve. Your rehearsals will become more focused. You will become even more keenly aware of technical/staging issues, and how they will be interpreted from the judges' box.

I'd like to add that a COMPLETE list of class descriptions can be found within the Judging materials on the NCBA website. Cricket's list posted above is the old version. The winterguard committee presented new descriptions which were adopted by NCBA at a general meeting. I believe we have made some great strides in having groups be placed appropriately, with fewer kinks. Are we perfect? Absolutely not. Are we trying desperately hard to improve the organization? Absolutely yes.

Respectfully,
Ron Salinas
SCHS guard instructor
NCBA WG committee member
The Golden Rule still applies. :)

Post Reply