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 Post subject: Insane NCBA rule
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:44 pm 
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Can anyone tell me the reasoning behind NCBA having a rule that says that there can be no bare feet on the gym floor or the guard will be disqualified. When we asked the NCBA people they said that it was CA state law (I really doubt that). I don't know of any other circuit that has this rule. Any enlightment would be appreciated.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:47 pm 
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It's not insane, I think it's logical. Nielson explained to us when we were getting our packets. It IS state code/law. It's not just for guard, but for the school in general. This is an event connected to the school organization so they have to follow the rules. WGI & CCGC have different rules because it's not necessarily school oriented. If someone were to be walking around barefoot and was injured, they could sue & people would get in trouble. Besides, do you really want to be walking around on all that ickiness? I wouldn't. I makes perfect sense to me. And a rule is a rule. It's not that big of a deal to wear flip flops or slippers until you get the floor out.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 9:56 am 
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Can someone tell me WHAT the CA Code is? I don't want en explanation but the reference so I can look it up myself. I don't believe the code is being interpreted correctly (as a policy analysit I would like to look at this for myself before deciding if I will bring my programs to NCBA).

Also - In the rules on the NCBA website it states: The 50Õ X 74Õ boundary will be marked on the floor by the Timing & Penalty judge. The front boundary line will be the only penalty line. The boundary lines are part of the competition area. Any guard member whose body or body parts (hands or feet) that are clearly observed to be over the boundary lines shall be given a 0.1 penalty per infraction. Reaching over the boundary line to pick up equipment is NOT an infraction unless the hand is grounded for support. (6/03)

This (in my professional interpretation) means that a penalty will NOT be assessed for a member who retrieves equipment beyone the Stage Left, Stage Right or back boundary line, unless his/her hand is used for support across th FRONT BOUNDARY LINE! There was a lot of confustion about this at NCBA shows I have been to.........and what is meant by the "boundary lines are part of the competition area" - just the space that "IS" the line.

THIS RULE NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED!

And...................The Timing and Penalty judge may have a performing unit enter the floor to mid-court prior to their performance providing it does not hinder the exiting unit. The guard unit may not go over the mid-court line until the Timing and Penalty Judge indicates that it is clear to enter the rest of the floor. Guards that go over the mid-court line with out the permission of the Timing and Penalty Judge will begin the timing of the 10 minute show time. The timing of the ten minute show time will begin when the Timing and Penalty Judge indicates that it is clear to enter the floor for competition. Be sure to check with the judge and wait for instruction to enter the rest of the floor.
(6/03)

Am I correct in reading that this is at the discretion of the T&P judge? That he decides (pretty much when the guard gets there) where the timing starts? This reads to me that the entry to the floor starts at the mid-court line (either horizontally or vertically) and that a guard will be timed once they cross that line. THIS RULE IS NOT BEING ENFORCED CORRECTLY!

I think NCBA SERIOUSLY needs to consider their rules and apply them CONCISTENTLY or let the instructors for programs know that the rules will be made up at the point that the unit reaches the staging area.

Thanks, hopefully SOMEONE in NCBA can answer these questions. I would be hesitant to bring my guard into this circuit - if the rules are this disorganized how can I trust them to be organized in their judging?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:08 am 
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This is an event connected to the school organization so they have to follow the rules. WGI & CCGC have different rules because it's not necessarily school oriented. If someone were to be walking around barefoot and was injured, they could sue & people would get in trouble.

I think this is a slippery slope - the band organization (from the school) hosting the event has to follow the school district rules.....and the school district has to follow city, county and state ordinances.........This alo applies to CCGC - where programs are sponsored by school organizations! So why is there a vast discrepancy in this one rule? Is NCBA run by a school district? Is it run by the department of education? And technically, when NCBA comes into Nevada for shows, they do not have to abide by the same California rules - new state, different laws.

And the issues of lawsuits - a member could (realistically in our culture) sure for an injury caused when a weapon was tossed because the light was too bright, or the bulb was flickering because it needed changed.........see you can't blame this rule on the fear of a lawsuit.

And I think if they are going to require shoes, then ALL performing units must wear footwear throughout the entire performance - there! No more Quesions or concerns.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 12:43 pm 
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sokkerboie wrote:
This (in my professional interpretation) means that a penalty will NOT be assessed for a member who retrieves equipment beyone the Stage Left, Stage Right or back boundary line, unless his/her hand is used for support across th FRONT BOUNDARY LINE! There was a lot of confustion about this at NCBA shows I have been to.........and what is meant by the "boundary lines are part of the competition area" - just the space that "IS" the line.


Honey, this is simple to figure out. They mark off the size of the stage to help the units who do not have floors of their own to use can have a reference point of the stage. This helps a lot to know where to set up props, flats, equipment, etc. If they didn't mark off all the boundry/stage lines ... my girls would probably be doing leaps onto the announcers table! So they mark off the entire stage, but you only get penalized if you cross the front boundry. Easy as pie. Get it?

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Am I correct in reading that this is at the discretion of the T&P judge? That he decides (pretty much when the guard gets there) where the timing starts? This reads to me that the entry to the floor starts at the mid-court line (either horizontally or vertically) and that a guard will be timed once they cross that line. THIS RULE IS NOT BEING ENFORCED CORRECTLY!


I was a little unsure about this rule last week so I asked someone about it that was working the Fairfield show and they had no idea. No help. So I didn't even bother to try it out until I talked to Nielson. But this week at the Vallejo show it made sense. You can start setting up and bringing out all your stuff on one half of the gym. Your timing does not begin until you cross that front half of the gym. This helps out a lot. You just need to clarify which half it is. It might be different from competition to competition because the performers exits aren't always on the same side. This week at Vallejo the exit was on the right to the front. So we were able to walk out to the back half of the stage. So you really need to ask a judge which half is the side you can walk on w/o beginning time.

I don't think it's the rule not being enforced, I think it's the instructors/directors not KNOWING the rule, or knowing it incorrectly. If you have questions, ask a judge. Doesn't everyone get an NCBA handbook?

The rules for NCBA are very simple and not difficult to figure out. And instead of arguing or debating I think everyone should
1) Ask questions and clarify anything they don't understand
2) Just shut mouth and follow the rules. Wear shoes. Respect the judges. They're there for you, not for themselves.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:08 pm 
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Well, to anser MsNikki's comments: I saw 3-4 schools who were in a panic when they were entering the floor and their floor was too big side-to-side - they were stressing about penalties for being out of the boundaries. This wouldn't be an issue if NCBA would clearly clarify what the rule is.

And I agree, maybe NCBA should require ALL guards to just wear shoes, put that in writing then there would be NO issue any more. Though I would still like to know what the CA regulation (state, county, or city, or school district) is for my own education. A governing body should be able to cite the statute or policy for rules they are going to claim are due to that regulation or policy. And perhaps, to avoid any questions, debate or discussion...post said policy in their rules.

And no, frankly, it's not easy as pie regarding the marking off of the "stage"..because technically any guard can be doing work wall to wall, and to the edge where the back stands start (perhaps say for walking behind backdrops and such) - and there is clearly some questions and misunderstanding or there would not be this question arising. Some floors ARE larger than the stage area marked off with the cones and technically this is perfectly alright so long as they do not cross the front line.

Now, regarding the starting point. TWO times on saturday I asked the T&P judge (who should be the resident expert on NCBA rules) about "start" line and was told it was as soon as the guard or any member thereof crosses the line of the cones into the performance space - NOT the middle line horizontally or vertically- of the floor. So CLEARLY there is some discrepancy about this rule. I made it known that I had educated myself on the rules and what the rules (as printed on the website) stated and that didn't seem to matter......so I think there needs to be consistency on this issue! It is QUITE unfair for an instructor to know and work and plan and REHEARSE (unless I'm the only instructor who rehearses ons and offs) for one set of rules, to be thrown a curve ball when you are entering the line for competition.

And after my discussion with some of the other directors in the area, it IS an issue of the rule not being enforced correctly than instrcutor miseducaiton.

So NCBA rules are NOT as clear as you might think - especially for a program coming in to the circuit new (who clearly follow the printed rules in preparation); and #2 questions were asked and answers were clearly out of compliance with the printed rules and #3I think for the sake of making a system and circuit better questions, complaints, concerns MUST be raised. To just "shut mouth and follow the rules" is no way to help a program grow.

And finally, my comments and questions were in NO way directed to the judges (I don't think I ever mentioned a judge in my comments other than the T&P who SHOULD know and enforce the rules clearly). I completely support the judges and system, but think there are some areas of improvement.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:24 pm 
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" And a rule is a rule. It's not that big of a deal to wear flip flops or slippers until you get the floor out.[/color][/quote]

I dont see any problems with following the rules, I strongly support that, and I totally understadn not wanting to walk around in all that "ick" as you put it. Lets be reasonable here though, allowing the guard to place their shoes at the edge of the gym and being allowed to retreive them after the performance makes much more sense then making them have them right next to the floor and if even a toe steps off they're disqualified. Secondly, in case you haven't noticed every CCGC show is held at a California HS. Take a look at the membership of CCGC, there are independent guards yes, but mostly SCHOLASTIC guards. If there were a law/ordinance whatever you know it would have been addressed and enforced. All I think is that the rule needs to be modified in requiring the performers to wear shoes outside of the gym area.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:55 pm 
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Don't know what to tell ya sokkerboie. I understand the rules and haven't run into any problems. We were able to set up on the back half of the gym and were not timed until we crossed over on to the front half.
I'm not aiming this at you ... but I don't understand what the big deal is about shoes! I mean if people are going to freak out because they have to wear their shoes just a bit longer, then they most certainly need to shift their focus else where and more important. I don't know which group it was but they were sOoOoO mad because they had to wear their shoes until they got on their floor. Whatever, get over it. It's like school, you break the rules you get punished. No matter how unfair you might think it is.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:49 pm 
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Ok an easy thing for when the time starts...When the T&P judge says go thats when he starts the time. I know with my guard he talks to them before they go on and when he sees that the last guard is off the floor he says ok go and do a great job and he starts the time. For getting off it does depend on where the exit is, thats on the website and I totally understood it from the diagrams they have. But really each unit has 10 minutes, I know my guard only uses 7 1/2 minutes, so I'm guessing most guards are safe from that.

The shoe rule while yes it is annoying its a lot safer than having your guard rushing outside holding a 300 pound floor barefoot when there might be broken glass around in the dark...I'm glad they inforce that rule

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:13 am 
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Regarding the whole shoe issue - you might notice that I did recommend that every guard just wear shoes in their entire production.

My issue is not with the shoes, but with the lack of clarity at a show compared to the rules on the website. I plan very carefully so that when my programs are entering the show from point one (when the bus arrives) they know exactly what to do, where to go, etc. This helps relieve any additional pressure that may arise from having to suddenly adapt when you get to the staging area.

And I too, understand the rules - as they are written. But to have rules change at a show site I think is a problem. Or maybe NCBA thinks they can make rule changes at show sites in Nevada and no one will speak up - well sorry.....it's my job in this activity to follow and UPHOLD the rules (which ALL of my programs, students and parents do) and sometimes that means pointing out discrepancies. And I think it's a disservice to my students and all of the students, judges, instructors, parents, supporters, and friends to just shut mouth and let questions and concerns about rules (not just from myself but from other programs in the area) lay idley by.

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 Post subject: Concerns
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:47 am 
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Soccerboie:

You seem to have a great many personal concerns about NCBA rules. Do you really think you will get satisfaction and enlightment by airing them all on the WOP website? When I have NCBA concerns I bring them to the appropriate NCBA official (in this case it would be Jim Zuniga, NCBA winter activities President).

NCBA rules don't change from show to show, but NCBA timing and penalty judges do. Given their responsibilites, they rarely make mistakes (usally on the side of NOT giving penalties when they should-giving groups the benefit of the doubt or a warning when possible) then when a judge a show or two later catches the problem, that judge seems to be the bad guy. The idea, I think, is "why punish the kids because of an instructors mistake WHEN POSSIBLE."

There were ALOT of changes made to NCBA WG rules last June, apparently you missed that meeting. The shoe rule was NOT one of them. That has always and forever been the rule.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:40 pm 
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with the no barefoot rules on the gym floor, does this apply to using a floor/mat/tarp. because your bare feet never touch the gym floor and there fore you cannot be injured by walking on objects.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:07 am 
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no if you have a floor you can be barefoot. You just aren't allowed to step off your floor without shoes.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:10 am 
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stupid rule/ politics

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