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 Post subject: LINCOLN BAND REVIEW (Parade & Field Results)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 11:24 pm 
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Sorry, I don't have the concert or jazz awards. And boy do I have a rant for my review tomorrow. There are some NCBA judges that just need to be put out to pasture.

Parade withdrawls (due to rain): Central, Vallejo, Paradise, Tracy and Nevada Union
Field Show withdrawls: Vallejo

PARADE
Junior Highs:
82.85 Los Banos JHS
82.05 Hamilton MS
80.40 Weaver MS

Class D:
90.15 Santa Cruz
84.65 John Swett
83.10 Encinal
78.55 Gustine
77.00 Dos Palos
76.35 Caruthers
69.40 Children's Home

Class C:
90.15 Cupertino
83.55 Vanden
82.85 Union Mine
82.60 Buhach Colony
82.45 Dublin
81.30 Del Mar
80.25 Jesse Bethel

Class B:
96.25 Benicia
88.95 Granite Bay
87.15 Livermore
86.80 Granada
83.05 Irvington

Class A:
95.20 Fairfield
92.90 Foothill
90.00 Folsom
86.60 Cordova
83.60 Franklin
82.05 Laguna Creek

Class AA:
86.70 Madera
86.10 Stagg
85.85 Turlock
85.55 Lodi
83.70 Tokay
82.10 Edison
81.00 Merrill West

Color Guard (overall):
94.0 Benicia
93.5 Santa Cruz
93.5 Fairfield
90.5 Cupertino
90.0 Foothill

Drum Majors (1st place):
Mace: 92.0 - West
Military: 92.0 - Granada
Open: 89.0 - Stagg

Percussion:
97.3 Fairfield
93.9 Granite Bay
92.5 Benicia

ALL PARADE SWEEPSTAKES: 96.25 BENICIA

FIELD SHOW
Class D:
82.45 Del Oro
73.55 Rodriguez
73.40 Central
71.70 Del Mar
67.35 Caruthers

Class C:
81.65 Highlands
79.45 Roseville
76.30 Union Mine
76.05 Nevada Union (-2.0 penalty)
73.30 Monte Vista

Class B:
93.55 Bella Vista
89.65 Granite Bay
84.75 Milpitas
86.25 Oakmont (DQ'd)

Class A:
90.60 Saratoga
90.60 Foothill
90.30 Folsom
88.55 Madera
86.70 Cupertino

Percussion:
95.9 Madera
94.4 Granite Bay
94.0 Saratoga
93.5 Foothill
91.5 Folsom

Color Guard:
92.0 Foothill
91.0 Madera
89.0 Folsom
87.0 Bella Vista
86.0 Saratoga

Drum Major:
93.0 Saratoga
91.0 Oakmont
89.0 Nevada Union
88.0 Del Mar
87.0 Cupertino

VISUAL: 285.0 Bella Vista
EFFECT: 280.0 Bella Vista
MUSIC: 372.5 Foothill

FIELD SWEEPSTAKES: 93.55 BELLA VISTA

OVERALL COMBINED SWEEPSTAKES: 183.50 FOOTHILL


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 Post subject: Lincoln Band Review - NCBA Rant
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:03 pm 
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Since this could very well be the last NCBA review I do (especially for field), you're going to get pure, unfiltered Phantom. And, honestly, this will be more rant than review. I apologize (not really) in advance to anyone who chooses to get offended.

I've been following the NCBA now for over a decade, and if someone were to ask me, "Phantom, what does it take to win (especially on the field) in the NCBA?" I honestly don't know how I would answer. I don't have a clue what it takes to win in the NCBA because there's no logic or consistancy behind the judges' scores.

For example, this was the sort of thing I saw on the recap sheets yesterday (note, these are not LITERAL, exact representations, since I don't have the recaps in front of me right now; I'm merely trying to give you an idea):

Band A -- Music #1: 434 -- Music #2: 405 -- Band score: 81.0
Band B -- Music #1: 435 -- Music #2: 435 -- Band score: 86.0
Band C -- Music #1: 436 -- Music #2: 480 -- Band score: 91.0
Band D -- Music #1: 470 -- Music #2: 405 -- Band score: 83.0

This sort of inconsistancy was all over the place. How is a band supposed to learn anything when each and every week they're likely to get sets of judges with contradictory opinions/criteria judging them?? What is Band C or D supposed to think when one judge has them in the Top 5 and the other judge has them 25th in the caption?

The NCBA simply has no consistent logic running through it. I mean, for every example you can bring up, every "ideal" that is supposed to be espoused by the judging system, I can point out NUMEROUS judging results that run contradictory to it. What's a band supposed to think when they're 3rd overall at one competition, 15th overall at another competition with the same bands, and then 4th overall at another?

Does the NCBA reward cleanliness over difficulty? Well, that would explain Bella Vista winning High Visual on the field. It would also explain how bands (like Fairfield and Benicia in previous years) can play extremely easy marches ("Farewell to a Slavic Woman") and still be rewarded with Music Sweepstakes.

But maybe the NCBA rewards difficulty over cleanliness? That would explain Foothill tieing Saratoga on the field. It would also explain MANY parade marching scores, especially those for Foothill and Fairfield.

Then again, sometimes a band or guard is neither clean nor particularly difficult and yet they still come away with big awards. Likewise, I've seen very clean bands performing stuff at a high degree of difficulty and not get rewarded for it. So what is it? How do you win in the NCBA?

I have no clue. As a result, I would like to announce that I never intend to attend another NCBA Field Show. I can't make that a guarantee, but since I'll be moving to SoCal it's probably pretty close. I've just gotten too frustrated with the NCBA, and there's no reason band directors, performers, and fans should be leaving competitions feeling like idiots because they don't understand what the judges want for a higher score.

And you know, I could go on, but I've said my piece. Time for the review...


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:51 pm 
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Okay, the review will be fairly short: I was unable to write down many comments (especially for parade) due to the rain. I did not score or comment on every band. Please note: these are just my honest opinions -- if I say something bad about your band... well, too bad. Just write me off as an idiot (as I'm sure many of you already have) and IGNORE ME.

Parade:
Lincoln HS - I am simply amazed at the immediate and tremendous drop-off this band has been hit with since Art Holton retired. I watched the Trojan Guard on the parade route and couldn't believe it was the same band I'd been listening to for the past 12-13 years. Very, very messy feet and a not so stellar sound. Folsom HS performed the same march ("Joyce's 71st New York Regiment") at a much higher quality.
Folsom HS - This is a parade band on the rise. I thought they sounded good at Del Oro and thought they sounded even better in Stockton. They look sharp, they sound great... Folsom, the powerhouse parade band? Who would've thought...
Madera HS - Did a pretty good job on "Revelation" by Chambers. Got off to a bit of a rough start, but got stronger as the march progressed (particularly musically). Pretty good alignment and decent marching. Their guard has so nice work, and they're solid (if not spectacular) in marching and music... so why have their showmanship scores been so abysmal? You got me, ask the judges.
Vanden - What HAPPENED? This band was spectacular last fall, and (much like Lincoln) their plummet in quality has been sudden and severe. I was amazed that this same band that won Sweepstakes last fall had regressed so far.
Merrill West - Just one comment: OUTSTANDING Mace Drum Major, best I've seen in NorCal all year. Just was served: he got 1st.
Foothill - Sound pretty good, a little garbled/fuzzy in the first couple of strains. Nice piccolo work on that famous line in the trio, very solid. Marching was only okay: I noticed a LOT of phasing issues. Dirty feet, another trademark of the NCBA bands (all of them except one, I'm not picking on Foothill).
Encinal - Encinal was one of the bands I was thinking of when I wrote my rant above. What does this group have to do to get a bit of respect? They sound good, they march better than most (nice diagonals, no one out of step, few phasing issues), they put on a nice performance... and they get 83s. What? Come on, I'm not saying they're 90+, but mid to high 80s, at least.
Santa Cruz - Outstanding auxiliary units, I was not the least bit surprised that they tied Fairfield, even though Fairfield's guard was on today, too. Terrific alignment and diagonals, nice marching, good sound. If this band could get 20 more musicians and put out just a slightly better sound they'd be in the 92-93 range, guaranteed.
Cupertino - Band finally produced the power I was looking for on the opening statement of "Arnhem," but seemed to struggle with tune and hitting the right notes for much of the march. Looked very sharp.
Benicia - Outstanding guard, terrific sound, crystal clear marching. Honestly, to score any other band (Fairfield) within 10 points of Benicia in the Marching caption is just a joke. More NCBA judging for you. Benicia is THE ONLY NCBA parade band that can march with the top tier of the SCSBOA groups. (Well, okay, maybe Las Plumas/Oroville, who I haven't seen this year, and Golden Valley would fare decently in SCSBOA competitions too.)
Fairfield - Pretty good sound, but still no impact/oomph/presence from the sound. It's sterile. Technically solid, and they hit all the notes, but it's a very drab, sterile overall sound. There's no fire to it. The guard was fantastic, best I've seen from Fairfield in a couple years. The marching, per usual, was scored unjustly high. Too many dirty feet, alignment problems, etc.

My Scores (Judges' scores):
97.0 Benicia (96.25)
92.5 Fairfield (95.20)
92.0 Foothill (92.90)
90.5 Santa Cruz (90.15)
90.0 Folsom (90.00)
89.5 Granite Bay (88.95)
88.5 Madera (86.70)
88.0 Cupertino (90.15)
87.5 Encinal (83.10)
86.5 Buhach Colony (82.60)
86.0 Tokay (83.70)
85.0 Lincoln (None)
84.5 Laguna Creek (82.05)
84.0 Dublin (82.45)
80.0 Vanden (83.55)

Both the judges and I agreed that Benicia swept Marching, Showmanship, Music, and Parade Sweepstakes.


FIELD SHOW (Class A):
Madera - A little rough, but one of the more difficult shows of the night. A few musical tears, visual was pretty solid. Drumline was outstanding, guard was, also. Guard routine is one of the hardest in the NCBA.
Foothill - Terrific sound, nice job on the music. Still a lot of visual dirt. I don't think this show ever lived up to it's full potential, they just couldn't get it clean enough. Percussion rocked. Guard was simple and competent, but not spectacular.
Folsom - A solid performance. Very nice sound and pretty good feet. Solid guard.
Saratoga - Wow! I didn't think much of this show at the Cupertino Band Review, but man have they done a lot with it in the past month! This show was smokin', the music was solid and the visuals were crisp. Saratoga's feet were nearly flawless: no phasing issues, they hit their sets together, stopped and started together. I was talking with John Stava (Madera) during their show and we both agreed that Saratoga had pretty much wiped the field with everyone else (particularly in the visual caption).

Phantom's Class A Bands:
94.0 Saratoga
90.0 Foothill
90.0 Madera
89.0 Folsom
85.0 Cupertino

Judges' Class A Bands:
90.60 Saratoga
90.60 Foothill
90.30 Folsom
88.55 Madera
86.70 Cupertino

Phantom's Class A Guards:
93.0 Madera
90.0 Saratoga
89.0 Folsom
86.0 Foothill
84.0 Cupertino

Judges' Class A Guards:
92.0 Foothill
91.0 Madera
89.0 Folsom
86.0 Saratoga
82.0 Cupertino

Phantom's Class A Percussion:
93.0 Madera
92.5 Saratoga
92.0 Foothill
91.0 Folsom
88.0 Cupertino

Judges' Class A Percussion:
95.9 Madera
94.0 Saratoga
93.5 Foothill
91.5 Folsom
??.? Cupertino

Phantom's Sweepstakes:
Visual: Saratoga
Effect: Saratoga/Madera
Music: Foothill

Field Show Rants/Questions:
1. Nothing against Bella Vista: I've seen their show and thought it was rock solid, but why was Saratoga scored so low? ESPECIALLY Visually. Saratoga gave the best Visual performance I've seen all year in the NCBA... yes, even better than the performance I saw by Leigh. As for Bella Vista winning Visual Sweeps... yes, those kids can march. Their technique is superb and their Individual Visual is outstanding. But their drill is NOT HARD. Saratoga's drill is about 10x harder than Bella Vista, was that not taken into account at all?
2. Speaking of difficulty, how on EARTH did Foothill win 1st place in guard? They were not as clean as Madera OR Saratoga OR Folsom, and their routine wasn't as difficult as any of those bands, either. A couple of weeks ago, when I expressed skepticism at Valencia's Guard Sweeps at Chino, I was fortunate enough to receive an email from Charles Brown, one of the SCSBOA auxiliary judges. Part of what he explained that Valencia scores high because, while there might be bands that are just as clean, few try their difficulty. He told me to keep my eyes open for layering, multiple things going on at once, and how they are integrated into the show. Since then, I've been very aware of that. I noticed several parts in both Madera's and Saratoga's shows where there were guard sections doing dance, weapon work, and flag work all at the same time, and that it flowed well with the show (Madera's dance work on the 50 in the ballad, Saratoga's high weapons toss on the front sideline). I didn't see ANY of that in Foothill's show. It seemed like their guard was doing flag work the whole show, and they just weren't as together.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:55 pm 
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I can express very similar feelings towards NCBA judges. Because of the nature of judging and being judged, it is all subjective to the opinions of a pair of judges. Quite often, there is little consistency.

A perfect example is to compare placings from Del Oro to Lincoln (field):
At Del Oro, Foothill outscored Bella Vista by 3 points, while at Lincoln, Bella Vista outscored Foothill by 3 points. Quite honestly, all things considered, I think they were very evenly matched:

General Effect - Bella Vista's show was far more exciting to watch than Foothill's. Foothill's guard did nothing special for me.
Music - Foothill's far more difficult
Marching - Foothill's far more difficult, but also never super clean, while Bella Vista's marching was nice.
I agree that Saratoga probably had the best visual of the night. Lots of difficult snaking curves to go with the theme (Medusa).

Side note: The girl who was sitting near me was a Saratoga fan, and was taking photos with a flash camera throughout the whole field show. It could not have been more annoying.

Another perfect example is the Field Conductor caption:
Del Oro:
(only 1st through 3rd awarded)
91 Union Mine
90 Bella Vista
88 Oakmont
(can't remember the next few)

Lincoln:
(only 1st through 3rd awarded)
93 Saratoga
91 Oakmont
89 Nevada Union
88 Del Mar
87 Cupertino
86 Union Mine

While Saratoga, Nevada Union, and Del Mar did not compete at Del Oro, there still is quite a discrepancy. (I don't have the recap sheets in front of me, or else I would tell you scores for the drum majors who were at both (Cupertino, Bella Vista, Granite Bay, etc.))

I was watching Saratoga's conductor, and his performance was not worthy of a first place...sorry. His placement of the beat wasn't very good, and it was done with hands that were floppy and far from FLAT PALMS. His cues had little style, nor variety, and he rarely changed positions. He acted as though he was cuing as he felt so moved by the energy of the music.

I have always understood that the pattern is the most important thing for a field conductor. If the pattern isn't perfected, then how can the addition of cues or volume control be added effectively? If the conductor can't provide a clear pattern in the first place, much less add clean cues, then he/she doesn't deserve a high placing, no matter how much they "feel" the music.

Oakmont apparently did something that Scot Thomsen and Kevin Cato both liked. On the other hand, Bella Vista and Union Mine apparently conducted to Kevin Cato's liking, but not to Thomsen's. And Thomsen and Cato also disagreed on placement of Cupertino versus Union Mine. Union Mine placed higher than Cupertino at Del Oro, while Cupertino beat out Union Mine at Lincoln. I wish I could have seen Del Mar, Nevada Union, and Union Mine conduct at Lincoln...it might have explained some of this (ie...did Union Mine mess up royally? I doubt it, but its a possibility.)

How are conductors supposed to improve when one judge thinks they deserve a top three placing, while another doesn't think they are even top five? (By the way, Del Oro had the same number of field bands as Lincoln.) Its obvious to me that the drum major judges need to come to an agreement on their scoring if they ever want the field conductors to improve.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:06 pm 
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When comparing scores and places between Del Oro and Lincoln, PLEASE remember that its been nearly a month between. Which means some groups have progressed and gotten better, that's what the idea is anyway. There is no way to compare Del Oro & Lincoln scores and use that as an example for NCBA judging. Frankly, if Lincoln had the same placements as Del Oro's I would be concerned.

But there is one thing I must agree with ... Foothill's guard should not have gotten first. No freakin' way.

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 Post subject: Little Arrogant?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:49 pm 
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Wow! I can't believe that some 29 year old would have the thought that his scores could even compare in intelligence to the NCBA judges. I mean never mind they are all directors going to Universities only to study music for years; Phantom Phan is of course more knowledgeable because he has watched the bands for a whole decade!! I wonder if he has ever even seen a judging sheet for the NCBA, or even knows the criteria? Of course not all the judges are going to have the exact same scores. The point is that they keep them relative to their own scores, meaning in their opinion the best band gets the top score and so on. Some score everyone low, and some everyone high. I have been judged in over 40 NCBA competitions, and even though I agree sometimes their choices in score seems odd, the system does work, and the top band does win. I noticed that Phantom Phan does agree with the places given, so then why worry about the value of the score? As long as they are in the right order, the number dosen't matter. Stop ranting with blather, and find some common sense!


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 Post subject: Re: Little Arrogant?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:58 pm 
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Tiny wrote:
Wow! I can't believe that some 29 year old would have the thought that his scores could even compare in intelligence to the NCBA judges. I mean never mind they are all directors going to Universities only to study music for years; Phantom Phan is of course more knowledgeable because he has watched the bands for a whole decade!! I wonder if he has ever even seen a judging sheet for the NCBA, or even knows the criteria? Of course not all the judges are going to have the exact same scores. The point is that they keep them relative to their own scores, meaning in their opinion the best band gets the top score and so on. Some score everyone low, and some everyone high. I have been judged in over 40 NCBA competitions, and even though I agree sometimes their choices in score seems odd, the system does work, and the top band does win. I noticed that Phantom Phan does agree with the places given, so then why worry about the value of the score? As long as they are in the right order, the number dosen't matter. Stop ranting with blather, and find some common sense!


:? Maybe that would be something more appropriate for you to share via Private Message.

Phantom's scores are usually pretty right on with the judges. It's not a matter of high & low, it's a matter of how could one group be clean yet get a lower score than a group that is messy but, erm, a NCBA judge favorite? It is a fact that the scores are way inconsistent, almost as if the judges aren't all on the same page - perhaps taught different methods/strategy's for judging. But that's what evens out everything.

One thing tho, is that since they changed the rules so that the colorguard is judged as one whole group instead of individual units, they need to educate the guard judges on ALL pieces of equipment. It's ridiculous to have someone who usually judges only ID comment on a rifle or flag toss as if they know the technique. Which is why next year I'll most likely be apprenticing during fall season to become a judge. Don't worry, I've spun every piece of equipment so I won't be contradicting myself.

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 Post subject: I agree, sort of
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:12 pm 
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Perhaps it should be a private message, but then again I believe if you bash someone (NCBA Judges) then you should be prepared to be bashed, same as I am by criticising Phantom Phan, I am prepared to be bashed. I mean this is a forum, I think it would be boring if we all tried to talk with a sugar tongue to each other. Be civil; I agree, but say your mind is also important. All I am saying is that it dosen't really matter the score as long as the right band got the right place, and Phantom Phan did put the same band in the same places, so how can a 95 given by an NCBA judge really differ that much in significance to Phantom Phan's 92? So you are becoming a judge in a judging system that you don't support? Interesting. NCBA favorite, hmm perhaps, but then again, if that is the case what do you suppose we put in place?


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 Post subject: What about Cupertino
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:44 pm 
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Hey Phantom Fan I see you posted reviews for only 4 of the 5 bands that competed in the big division. Wasn't Cupertino there as well? Why didn't you give a review on them??? I happened to see them and thought they improved TREMENDOUSLY over the last couple of shows I have seen them at. Where did their sound come from? They actually played pretty loud at times. At least alot louder than they ever have before. Anyone hear that on field warmup they did???? WOW!!! That was loud !! Congratulations to Cupertino on a much improved season from start to finish. They obviously have worked very hard this year.
I do agree by the way with what you are saying about the judging. I too, have been involved with many different NCBA bands for the last ten years and the only thing that is consistant about the judging is that it is INCONSISTANT. In the judges defense. (very small defense) They are working on trying to improve the quality of the judging. Unfortunately they are taking WAY too long to figure things out. They really are hurting these kids with their lack of understanding of how to judge. It's funny when you talk with some of these "older" judges in NCBA, how they think that people who teach and judge in DCI are not qualified to judge in the NCBA. Don't they realize that DCI is the cutting edge of this marching activity? These NCBA judges have a lot to learn, and some older ones probably just need to reitre ( I"m sure I'll get "flamed" for that remark, sorry) I wish them luck. In the mean time I will continue to focus on the kids I teach and try to give them the best experience possible knowing that this activity is more about growth, performance, and self-confidence ( to name just a few) than it is about scores.


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 Post subject: Re: Little Arrogant?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:51 pm 
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Tiny wrote:
Wow! I can't believe that some 29 year old would have the thought that his scores could even compare in intelligence to the NCBA judges.


Sheesh, cut a guy some slack... I'm only 27... Russ. ;)

I'm taking a wild guess here, I know, maybe I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure you are who I think you are. 8-)

Tiny wrote:
I mean never mind they are all directors going to Universities only to study music for years; Phantom Phan is of course more knowledgeable because he has watched the bands for a whole decade!!


Right, they study MUSIC. So what makes their opinions any better or worse in the realms of Marching and Showmanship? Aren't both of those categories basically full of "hand-me-down" knowledge that you primarily get from one-on-one instruction and from keeping your eyes and ears open and mouth shut? (As hard as it may be to believe, my mouth is more often shut than not outside of this board.)

As for music, true, I never finished my degree. But I don't consider myself a musical imbecile, either: I played for many years, have taken classes, studied, composed, watched, listened... and while I may not be as knowledgeable as many of the band directors out there, I'd bet good money that I'm at least as knowledgeable as SOME of them. Why? Because music is my passion. That's why I have almost 500 CDs that I listen to endlessly. That's why I'll pull out the scores to Mozart's "Requiem" or Holst's "Planets" or any of the several others I own and study them in my free-time (because those guys DEFINITELY know a hell of a lot more about music than I ever will; and I figure that it certainly couldn't hurt to view and review their music to see what THEY did and how it WORKED... or, more rarely, didn't work). That's why Rimsky-Korsakov's "Principles of Orchestration" is on my bookshelf next to all those Dilbert books. :)

Besides, as Mark Twain said: "I have never let schooling interfere with my education." :D

Tiny wrote:
I wonder if he has ever even seen a judging sheet for the NCBA, or even knows the criteria?


Yes to the judging sheet. I looked over a whole bunch of them on Saturday in Stockton, as Dan Talbert and John Stava gave me free access to look at the judging sheets for Madera HS (although that was by no means the first time I've seen an NCBA judging sheet).

As for the criteria, I am well-versed in those, too.



Tiny wrote:
Of course not all the judges are going to have the exact same scores. The point is that they keep them relative to their own scores, meaning in their opinion the best band gets the top score and so on. Some score everyone low, and some everyone high. I have been judged in over 40 NCBA competitions, and even though I agree sometimes their choices in score seems odd, the system does work, and the top band does win. I noticed that Phantom Phan does agree with the places given, so then why worry about the value of the score? As long as they are in the right order, the number dosen't matter. Stop ranting with blather, and find some common sense!


The top band USUALLY wins. But I wonder how many times a band has gotten 3rd instead of 2nd, or 1st instead of Sweepstakes, just because the judges put 1 point between them and Band X in a particular caption when there should've been 10. For example, let's say Homer HS and Marge HS are about equal to one another in music and showmanship, but Homer HS is vastly superior in marching.

Well, come competition day, Homer HS gets a 278 in Showmanship and a 470 in Music, and Marge HS gets a 279 in Showmanship and a 471 in Music. Then, in the marching category, Homer HS get 191 and Marge HS gets a 190, even though Homer HS was actually quite a bit superior. Marge HS would beat out Homer by 0.1, even though Homer was actually better overall, because the judges didn't put enough spacing between the two scores.

This HAPPENS. It doesn't happen every week, no, of course not... but it DOES happen (more often on field than in parade). I've seen it happen several times over the years, and if you want me to start calling out names and events I will gladly go through my old programs and do so.

So why do I worry about it? Because I'm anal, that's why. If one band performs at a 94.0 and the other at a 90.0, I don't want to see scores of 92.1 and 92.0. It does a disservice to both bands: leads one to believe they aren't as good as they really are, and tells the other that they're better than they really are. And yes, I think the kids DO pay attention to this sort of thing and that it DOES affect them.

As for what sort of "system" we should put in place, that doesn't matter. NO system will be efficient if the judges "play favorites," don't leave a big enough spread, or otherwise make judging mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: What about Cupertino
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:00 am 
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HighTrpt wrote:
Hey Phantom Fan I see you posted reviews for only 4 of the 5 bands that competed in the big division. Wasn't Cupertino there as well? Why didn't you give a review on them???


Because in the mood I was in I would have been unnecessarily harsh, so I held off.

HighTrpt wrote:
I happened to see them and thought they improved TREMENDOUSLY over the last couple of shows I have seen them at. Where did their sound come from? They actually played pretty loud at times. At least alot louder than they ever have before. Anyone hear that on field warmup they did???? WOW!!! That was loud !! Congratulations to Cupertino on a much improved season from start to finish. They obviously have worked very hard this year.


There is much more to music than volume. Personally, I think Cupertino bit off more than they could chew this year. The show's difficulty looked way past what the kids could handle. They did show some improvement, but even at the end of the year their show had oodles of musical and visual tears. They simply aren't at the same level as the other A-class bands. Hopefully they'll be a little less ambitious next year and put out a much better show.

HighTrpt wrote:
In the judges defense. (very small defense) They are working on trying to improve the quality of the judging. Unfortunately they are taking WAY too long to figure things out.


Actually, that's in the NCBA's defense. It's the guys like Jeff Stratton, Rowland Nielsen and Greg Christiansen that are working on trying to improve the quality of the judging. Unfortunately, I do NOT get the feeling that it's a team effort with the support of all of the judges, and I'd wager that there are quite a few judges who are "set in their ways" and are resisting any changes.

HighTrpt wrote:
It's funny when you talk with some of these "older" judges in NCBA, how they think that people who teach and judge in DCI are not qualified to judge in the NCBA. Don't they realize that DCI is the cutting edge of this marching activity? These NCBA judges have a lot to learn, and some older ones probably just need to reitre ( I"m sure I'll get "flamed" for that remark, sorry)


Holy... I'm afraid to even be in the same thread with that remark. :lol:

Needless to say, while I don't agree with everything you said there, I *do* agree that there are a handful of NCBA judges that, should they continue to not "change with the times," would do the organization a favor by retiring.


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 Post subject: Re: I agree, sort of
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:55 pm 
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Tiny wrote:
So you are becoming a judge in a judging system that you don't support? Interesting.


I don't support the idea of specialized guard judges trying to judge a colorguard as whole for parade. So I'm becoming a judge because I am, erhm, specialized in each piece of parade equipment. Interesting indeed, eh?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:26 pm 
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I was going to talk about how badly Madera got shanked on the field, but it looks like Phantom took care of that. I wasn't sure if it was just me or if our guard really REALLY got robbed this weekend. Then I watched the video and came to the conclusion that it's not just me. Something I didn't understand was how Madera scored a 94.6 (?) in Merced and then a 88.something in Lincoln. I felt that this was one of our best shows and we should have done a bit better. I think this is all before I get too carried away.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 7:22 pm 
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Well, there certainly was a whole lot of bashing in the past few posts. I gotta say that (even though I dont know alot of the judging, cause i dont really care enough,) that phantom seems to know all the facts here, and anyone that doesnt respect his views should say so PRIVATELY. I do not belive these formus were made to bash on individuals. Yeah, opinions on how good/bad a band was is fine, but man... seriously, dont insult someone for putting forth their 2 cents.

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