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 Post subject: Re: Predictions?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:11 pm 
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newguy wrote:
I don't know about an inquiry, but I do like that there are now two judges watching each caption... it really highlights the issues of scoring inconsistencies...

I thought the percussion judges were a little better aligned than the guard judges, but the case you pointed out is pretty severe.

One music judge gave:
A- 815 B- 802 and C- 811

The other music judge gave:
A- 825 B- 730 and C- 716

Seems like the second guy really really liked the "A" group... he had them right up there with a couple of his scores for groups in the advanced division. Huge gap in the score. Certainly had an impact on the final outcome.
The other three judges had A & C very close though... I wouldn't say that they all agreed which one should have been champion. As a matter of fact both Music judges scored group A higher and both GE judges scored group C higher.


If I was the band director for this school, I would be disappointed. As a board member, I would sympathize and empathize and give that band director more than a minute to show both!! This was a heartbreak for that group. I do hope that NCBA would at least show some sense of care for one of its members. Showing that care will not change the outcome. However, showing sympathy/empathy may encourage that director to continue being positive and active in NCBA. In the end ... congratulations to that program for a strong enough performance to give them "first" place at champs!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:59 am 
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I would hope for the same.
Feeling comfortable about openly addressing the issues are a problem, for fear of future "repercussions" -no pun intended-

For the most part, I thought that the percussion panels were pretty good. You can't expect perfection, but the intermediate division was definitely an exception.

What can be done as directors or event hosts or board members or judges, to prevent this type of thing from happening in the future?


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 Post subject: Re: Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:43 am 
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newguy wrote:
What can be done as directors or event hosts or board members or judges, to prevent this type of thing from happening in the future?

Emphasize numbers management and give a mandatory training class in it.

This sort of thing has been happening in all facets of the NCBA for a minimum of 20 years. I still remember several band competitions where a vastly inferior band took sweepstakes because the numbers management was so inconsistent across the panel.

I'm not an NCBA member. But it seems to me that the NCBA emphasis has always been on order/ordinals first and numbers management second. At that has never been and never will be good enough (IMO) to provide consistent judging results (unless you're on an ordinal-based judging system, like UIL).


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 Post subject: Re: Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:33 pm 
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Couldn't agree more about NCBA needing numbers management training. I wasn't there, but just took a look at the recap. Here are samples of poor numbers management [and understanding what the numbers really show], and good numbers management -
*** In Scholastic -
Music 1 had his top 3 888, 885, and 883 points respectively, meaning his top 3 were relatively close all within 5 points! Music 2 933, 928, 925 had his within 8 points...again respectable...no one is "calling the contest". Until you take it one step deeper. Looking at their 4th and 5th ranked groups, Music 1 retained his numbers management to a degree with an 878 and 872, though the 872 in reality is 15 points back of 1st on this sheet. Music 2 has his 4th and 5th with 919 and 915 ... his 5th place group is 18 points back of his 1st! By the way, Music 2's 5th place was Music 1's 1st place. The 18 points is a margin hard to overcome!
Let's simplify with GE - GE1 1st 894, 5th 876 ... a gap of 18 points! GE 2 1st 906, 5th 881 ... a gap of 25 points ... a gap no group can expect to make up!
By the way, the one in 5th in GE2 [Elk Grove] finished this way on the sheets - Music 1 3rd behind by 5 points from 1st; Music 2 2nd behind by 5 points from 1st; GE1 3rd 2 points from 1st; GE2, 5th 25 points from 1st .... I have no affiliation whatsoever with Elk Grove, in fact I just picked them out randomly as I typed here ... bottom line, if I am on staff there, I would not be pleased with GE2 and their numbers management ... he cost them any chance of winning this show.
When looking at this, it is pretty obvious some judges are not looking at it as 1000 points ... they are thinking 100 points [like 90.6 to 88.1 is 2.5 points not 25 points since the number is eventually multipled by a tenth]. It's not...and I think a sample like Elk Grove can attest to that. In the "WGI judging community", it's called seeing the value of the tenth! NCBA judges need to learn that lesson.
By the way, if you want more bad examples of numbers mangament, look at Music 2 and GE1 [I guess that is "WP3"] in the Open class and how they handled Rodriguez and Foothill. Not good.


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 Post subject: Re: Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:09 pm 
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Georgie with the example you used of 25 points being hard to overcome... I can't imagine what you must think about Music Judge #2 in the intermediate division with the 100+ point difference between champs and 1st place.
It is pretty crazy...

Are there NCBA judges reading this stuff? Does NCBA talk to their judges about this in training? Does continuing education/training occur for judges, or are they "qualified" once they finish their apprenticeship?

In an effort to not make this sound like a bunch of people complaining about their results... I'll point out that I'm very happy with the results of the percussion unit I am associated with. I don't completely agree with all of the rankings in our division, or even within certain captions, but I completely respect the judges points of view.
Just wish we could see some more consistency from judge to judge.


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 Post subject: Re: Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:28 pm 
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0.025

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 Post subject: Re: Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:14 pm 
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Where's the recap???

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 Post subject: Re: Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:37 pm 
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ncbaonline.org

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 Post subject: Re: Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:16 pm 
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Newguy...I didn't look back to intermediate results until you responded to my post ... I am completely blown away by the Music 2 judge, especially as the others all retained at least some reasonable distances between groups. The fact that Music 2 ranked his top 3 slightly different than the other judges should not be that big of a deal...until you place a 100 point gap between 1st and second!!! He absolutely called the contest for that class. Unprofessional, uncalled for, and an embarassment for him and that circuit.
Kudos to Music 1 for making it a clear victory of 4 points to his #1 group. Kudos also to the GE judges and the highest ranking group on both GE sheets winning by 11 points on one sheet, and 1 on another...oh yeah, never mind high GE ....you lost music by 100 points in the eyes of 1 judge. What a shame.


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 Post subject: Re: Predictions?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:58 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Predictions?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:08 am 
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I don't think any of us are huge fans of "music judge 2"

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 Post subject: Re: Predictions?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:44 am 
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Music Judge 2 decided the champion in half of the classes he judged...

MS Novice
Music Judge 1: 777, 735 (-42 from 1st), 720 (-57 from 1st)
Music Judge 2: 758, 655 (-103), 645 (-113)

MS Advanced
Music Judge 1: 775, 748 (-27), 745 (-30)
Music Judge 2: 779, 672 (-107), 668 (-111)

HS Intermediate
Music Judge 1: 815, 811, 806, 802 (-13)
Music Judge 2: 825, 730 (-95), 716 (-109), 708 (-117)

HS Advanced
And yet the scores here are sane. Same two judges as Intermediate. Judge #1 ranged 65 points (875 to 810) across nine units. Judge #2 ranged 85 points (886 to 801). Perfectly reasonable.

HS Scholastic
Different Music #1: 866 to 888 (22-point spread across seven units)
Same Music #2: 875 to 933 (58-point spread across seven unites)
Still reasonable.

HS Open
Same two as Scholastic
Music #1: 924 to 949 (25 points across six units)
Music #2: 932 to 964 (32 points)

So he seems to be in step with the more advanced groups, but is at odds with the other judges' spreads for the less experienced ensembles.


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 Post subject: Re: Predictions?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:44 am 
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olledowerdna wrote:
0.025

Man, that number keeps following you, doesn't it? :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Predictions?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:46 am 
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Music 2 was not the same person all day.

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 Post subject: Re: Predictions?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:51 am 
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Georgie wrote:
Couldn't agree more about NCBA needing numbers management training. I wasn't there, but just took a look at the recap. Here are samples of poor numbers management [and understanding what the numbers really show], and good numbers management -
*** In Scholastic -
Music 1 had his top 3 888, 885, and 883 points respectively, meaning his top 3 were relatively close all within 5 points! Music 2 933, 928, 925 had his within 8 points...again respectable...no one is "calling the contest". Until you take it one step deeper. Looking at their 4th and 5th ranked groups, Music 1 retained his numbers management to a degree with an 878 and 872, though the 872 in reality is 15 points back of 1st on this sheet. Music 2 has his 4th and 5th with 919 and 915 ... his 5th place group is 18 points back of his 1st! By the way, Music 2's 5th place was Music 1's 1st place. The 18 points is a margin hard to overcome!
Let's simplify with GE - GE1 1st 894, 5th 876 ... a gap of 18 points! GE 2 1st 906, 5th 881 ... a gap of 25 points ... a gap no group can expect to make up!
By the way, the one in 5th in GE2 [Elk Grove] finished this way on the sheets - Music 1 3rd behind by 5 points from 1st; Music 2 2nd behind by 5 points from 1st; GE1 3rd 2 points from 1st; GE2, 5th 25 points from 1st .... I have no affiliation whatsoever with Elk Grove, in fact I just picked them out randomly as I typed here ... bottom line, if I am on staff there, I would not be pleased with GE2 and their numbers management ... he cost them any chance of winning this show.
When looking at this, it is pretty obvious some judges are not looking at it as 1000 points ... they are thinking 100 points [like 90.6 to 88.1 is 2.5 points not 25 points since the number is eventually multipled by a tenth]. It's not...and I think a sample like Elk Grove can attest to that. In the "WGI judging community", it's called seeing the value of the tenth! NCBA judges need to learn that lesson.
By the way, if you want more bad examples of numbers mangament, look at Music 2 and GE1 [I guess that is "WP3"] in the Open class and how they handled Rodriguez and Foothill. Not good.


I can only speak for myself, as I was GE2(WP4).
To say that I cost that group any chance of winning would be slightly irresponsible and very inacurate. That fine group was placed 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, and 5th giving them a 3rd place overall finish. Not sure why you think that my score and ranking cost them from winning 1st overall. Silly statement as no judge gave them the top spot. I work hard to be acurate and provide fair evaluations and have attended number management clinics held by NCBA that consider the tenths. Again, great job to all this season NCBA groups :)

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