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 Post subject: WBA Judging question???
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 9:25 pm 
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This is coming from an outsider (the last show in California I saw live was WBA finals several years ago in SoCal).

At the BOA regional yesterday, El Toro, a WBA AAA band, defeated both Upland and Thousand Oaks, two of the AAAA bands.

When I look at recaps of WBA shows, it seems the AAAA bands are almost always on top of the top AAA bands (yes, I do see the Fresno show had some NCBA bands in AAAA that were behind some of the AAA bands, but I'm talking about the "regular" WBA AAAA bands).

I also realize no matter what system is in use, a band like Logan or Etiwanda would come out on top.

However, is there a bias or unwritten expectation with the WBA judging community that an AAAA band should always outscore an AAA band?

The BOA regional was a neutral site with several judges who had probably never judged any of the bands before and had no preconceived notions.

For example, are the top 8 AAAA bands all better than Buchanan, or is the size of the group maybe being taken into consideration (even if subconsiously) when the numbers are being thrown down on the page. Or, are the top 8 AAAA bands beating Buchanan (for example) because they are simply outperforming them, regardless of numbers?

I will let those of you who are more intimately familiar with WBA answer the question.

As a side issue- how does SCSBOA handle the scores from smaller to larger bands? How does SCSBOA do compared to WBA in adjudication of small vs large groups? Not trying to start a war, just trying to learn something.


Wolfgang


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 Post subject: This is how it is supposed to work...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 9:57 pm 
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As a person who has over 25 years experience of adjudicating field, parade, and concert festival for SCSBOA, I can give you my personal view. I have also served as Vice President of Parade Adjudication and Vice President of Festivals for SCSBOA.

For all marching events for SCSBOA (field and parade), the same standards apply for middle schools and high schools regardless of school enrollment or ensemble size. All competitors are adjudicated on the same scale (standard). The criteria reference (of which many directors agree or disagree) for field adjudication is the same for all competitive groups regardless of class designation or size of ensemble. The 50+ years of SCSBOA philosophy has always been to "rank the groups" and "put them in the right order" from "1st to last" at each event.

In my 21 years as director of the Magnolia HS Band of Anaheim, California, I had field bands that ranged from 63 to 104 musicians. On many occasions, my bands competed with and received a higher score (number/result/placing) than bands that were 200 or 300 in number.

I have also adjudicated field tournaments in Hawaii, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Oregon, Washington and other states where the adjudication standard ranged from using a blank piece of paper to a sliding scale of criteria reference based upon a competitor's division (band size or school size).

All band directors in California have the freedom of choice as to "their chosen poison." They can pick and choose which circuit/association/system to have their bands participate for evaluation.

While using mostly SCSBOA in my career (call it loyalty to my peers), I also took my bands to the very first BOA events in Southern California as well as university sponsered events and independent events.

For me, the grass was not always greener... My concern was providing the very best music education for my students. That usually meant taking my bands to events where music was the primary concern of the judges. This was my "poison of choice."

John Hausey
Director of Bands
Magnolia HS 1976-1997

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 Post subject: Re: This is how it is supposed to work...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 10:09 pm 
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vore wrote:
For me, the grass was not always greener... My concern was providing the very best music education for my students. That usually meant taking my bands to events where music was the primary concern of the judges. This was my "poison of choice."


Does that mean that SCSBOA weighs music more in comparison to WBA or any other circuit?

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 Post subject: Music Caption...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 10:15 pm 
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Musical Performance (caption, box, or any other chosen term) for SCSBOA is worth 450 points out of 1000. As to the standards or distribution of points for the music caption of other circuits, I do not have the answer. Of the current bands that I consult, clinic and/or rehearse, none attend WBA functions.

John Hausey

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 Post subject: WBA Music Scores
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:30 am 
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On the WBA system, there is 150 points for Music Effect, 300 points for music performance, and 100 points for the percussion caption which is part of the overall score. So the music score is 650, and visual is 350.

Another way to break the scoring system down, 15% Effect (both visual and music) 15% music performance, 10% visual performance, 10% Auxiliary, and 10% percussion.


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 Post subject: Music Performance...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:16 am 
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Once again...

SCSBOA has a Musical Performance caption worth 450 points which includes everyone playing their instruments (winds and percussion).

A percussion judge is used to evaluate and place percussion sections for individual awards which are not figured into the overall band/unit/school award. In addition, the field show host a choice of using or not using a percussion judge! Percussion adjudication is not required at SCSBOA events. Many band directors feel percussion is already being evaluated in the Musical Performance area and do not see the need for doubling the evaluation process.

Yes, there are music areas in the 350 points for SCSBOA General Effect but General Effect is not Musical Performance. One could say that the General Effect of Music lies in that 350 point area.

However, speaking only of Musical Performance, SCSBOA uses a caption worth 450 points... again, this includes winds and percussion.

450 Music Performance (not General Effect of Music... just Performance)

350 General Effect (some comments to the effect of music are in this area)

200 Visual

So, not even considering the area of music in the General Effect caption, 45% of the total score is based on MUSIC PERFORMANCE...need I say more?

When ties are broken, field shows using SCSBOA usually break ties using the MUSIC PERFORMANCE SCORE. BOA breaks ties using the GENERAL EFFECT SCORE.

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Last edited by vore on Mon Nov 03, 2003 4:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Music Performance...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:39 am 
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vore wrote:


450 Music Performance (not General Effect of Music... just Performance)

350 General Effect (some comments to the effect of music are in this area)

250 Visual

When ties are broken, field shows using SCSBOA usually break ties using the MUSIC PERFORMANCE SCORE. BOA breaks ties using the GENERAL EFFECT SCORE.


200 Visual
...hee hee


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 Post subject: Re: Music Performance...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:19 pm 
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gangemi wrote:
vore wrote:


450 Music Performance (not General Effect of Music... just Performance)

350 General Effect (some comments to the effect of music are in this area)

250 Visual

When ties are broken, field shows using SCSBOA usually break ties using the MUSIC PERFORMANCE SCORE. BOA breaks ties using the GENERAL EFFECT SCORE.


200 Visual
...hee hee


No Mike...it's 250 points...we now judge on a scale of 1050 pts, so as to give anyone with a score higher than a 100 some CASH!!! Apparently RB and Etiwanda are on their way!! :lol:

And on a more serious note, hats off to Mr. Hausey for explaining more clearly the breakdown of scores and what falls within the music "caption" for SCSBOA sheets. I think this sort of education is necessary, especially for our comrades that do strictly BOA/WBA shows. And since I've been in the thick of the discussions in past years as to the merits of WBA vs. SCSBOA (I can hear Mr. Gangemi getting out his flame suit now--no worries Mikey--stand down!!), I'll just say that, as I've been saying lately, WBA and SCSBOA certainly both have their good and bad.

Now--I just recently purchased a boat load of BOA tapes from Grand Nationals, and am in the process of reviewing them. I'm fixing to unleash my opinion pretty soon about some things--but until then, I'll just bite my tounge, and keep saying that MUSICALLY SPEAKING, there are SEVERAL southern Cal "SCSBOA-style" bands that would hold their own to what I've heard on these tapes.

But more on that later...thanks again Mr. Hausey. :D

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 Post subject: Very Welcome...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:25 pm 
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Mr. Turner,

You are more than welcome...

Mr. Hausey

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:08 pm 
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I agree with a lot of whats been said already. However, if you really look at it, a lot of those bands (i.e. Thousand Oaks) have been doing well in WBA events this year, and it was a suprise to see how the placed in BOA. You cant compare or cross judge between two circuits. Its like "apples and oranges" We dont know how James Logan would do in BOA because they have not gone to a show in BOA, and Etiwanda as I know it, hasnt done WBA in a while. It should be very interesting to see how Etiwanda does at the Trabuco Hills show this month. So far all of those bands that Etiwanda beat, have all been on each others heals in WBA. It wouldnt suprise me if WBA has Etiwanda below Upland, Thousand Oaks, and El Toro at that event.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:29 pm 
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Music Education said:
"It wouldnt suprise me if WBA has Etiwanda below Upland, Thousand Oaks, and El Toro at that event."

Are you insinuating that WBA judges will score Etiwanda lower because they don't do many WBA shows? I certainly hope that doesn't happen.

Anyone who has seen Etiwanda this year should certainly be impressed. They are on another level and I believe that they will win 4A at Trabuco Hills.

It will be exciting to see El Toro. They did well at BOA, but I don't believe they have competed against much of the AAA or AAAA schools. We shall see.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:42 pm 
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[quote="Been Around Awhile"]Music Education said:
"It wouldnt suprise me if WBA has Etiwanda below Upland, Thousand Oaks, and El Toro at that event."

Are you insinuating that WBA judges will score Etiwanda lower because they don't do many WBA shows? I certainly hope that doesn't happen.

Anyone who has seen Etiwanda this year should certainly be impressed. They are on another level and I believe that they will win 4A at Trabuco Hills.

It will be exciting to see El Toro. They did well at BOA, but I don't believe they have competed against much of the AAA or AAAA schools. We shall see.[/quote]

I sure hope as well the WBA doesn't think that way. They are all professionals and it would be ashame for them to be so hung up on their world as to not justifiably judge an event as it actually should be. That would go for SCSBOA and BOA as well. Afterall, Look at what El Toro, 1000 Oaks,Upland all did at BOA. Very well represented their field anf very fairly judged. All bands should be judged as to the material they are performing and not because of their participation in a group. There are too many events and money costs these days for groups to worry about hitting all events. Impossible! I think it is very complementary to the Director that they would have their group compete in as many judges groups possible. If you can do it in one you should be able to do it in all of the groups. The performance is the same and the judging is very similar in all three when you break it down.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:47 pm 
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rickyric wrote:
Been Around Awhile wrote:
Music Education said:
"It wouldnt suprise me if WBA has Etiwanda below Upland, Thousand Oaks, and El Toro at that event."

Are you insinuating that WBA judges will score Etiwanda lower because they don't do many WBA shows? I certainly hope that doesn't happen.

Anyone who has seen Etiwanda this year should certainly be impressed. They are on another level and I believe that they will win 4A at Trabuco Hills.

It will be exciting to see El Toro. They did well at BOA, but I don't believe they have competed against much of the AAA or AAAA schools. We shall see.


I sure hope as well the WBA doesn't think that way. They are all professionals and it would be ashame for them to be so hung up on their world as to not justifiably judge an event as it actually should be. That would go for SCSBOA and BOA as well. Afterall, Look at what El Toro, 1000 Oaks,Upland all did at BOA. Very well represented their field anf very fairly judged. All bands should be judged as to the material they are performing and not because of their participation in a group. There are too many events and money costs these days for groups to worry about hitting all events. Impossible! I think it is very complementary to the Director that they would have their group compete in as many judges groups possible. If you can do it in one you should be able to do it in all of the groups. The performance is the same and the judging is very similar in all three when you break it down.



In no way was I trying to insiunate anything. Ive been a member in a WBA band, as well as teaching a few WBA bands, to know how it works. I attend shows in both WBA and BOA venues. My point to the last thing I posted was simply that, their scoring is different. Some bands do very well in both WBA and BOA, while others tend to fare well in one or the other. By me saying "It wouldnt suprise me to see the results..." come out a certain way, is just based on how things have turned out in the past. Etiwanda doing WBA off and on has nothing to do with how they are scored. I remember a few years ago, Trabuco Hills did a BOA show, and scored what...a 72.80 in finals, and then came to WBA and scored in the mid 80's, my point proven, these are two different venues. You cant compare them. Both do have wonderful judging systems, and I am proud to say that California has some of the best circuits in th ecountry. Just looking at other organizations (i.e. UIL - Texas, South Carolina State Champs, etc) we are very fortunate to have such a great panel of judges at our events. I dont slam bands on public forums, so please dont assume that thats what I was trying to do.

Thank you,

Musically yours.


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 Post subject: WBA judging
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 8:55 am 
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I have to say my main problem with SCSBOA is their inconsistency. From one show to the next, I never know what my scores or tapes are going to say. Most of my comments were very shallow in scope and nothing beyond what I didn’t already recognize. Many comment were completely meaningless ie “I don’t think your uniforms fit you well” or “I don’t like this section here”. Comments are very vague and often times insulting to the students who were working so hard despite circumstance beyond their or my control. I found more and more I got less and less from SCSBOA competitions. In an effort to get a new perspective I tried WBA. What an amazing difference! My sheets were consistent with where I thought my band was. The comments were objective and constructive(even though I knew we were not up to the level of most of the other bands). Many comments were directed to specific sections and even individuals regarding their specific embouchures and how they could improve, they suggested different mouthpieces and reeds to use – even citing brands and specific #’s. I was thoroughly impressed by ALL of my judges tapes and their total commitment to youth excellence. I spent two years frusterated in SCSBOA and this year I am performing exclusively in WBA and I will never go back. I must say to SCSBOA’s credit, however, their concert and jazz band festivals are among the best in the world. I have been to several concert and jazz band festivals with quite the opposite experience. I have had many meaningful experiences within SCSBOA in the concert band and jazz band realm. I think everyone has to find their own place within the marching world. Find a marching organization that fits your philosophy and go with it. We could argue philosophy all day but in the end whatever you feel is going to be the best for your students is what you should go with. :D

Jason Cawelti
Director of Instrumental Music
El Modena High School
Blue Devils 1991, 1992
RCC – 89, 90, 91
CSU, Fresno – 93 – 98
Bulldog Beat 93, 96


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