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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:30 pm 
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Lets be a little more clear. Keeping in mind that if Pleasant Grove wasn't at that competition, Dublin would have been in first place by almost 3 points. You are basically saying Dublin is misclassified and should move up to scholastic.

I think an arbitrary limit of 30 points per judge between second and first is ridiculous. Lets say Spanish Springs and Vintage were the only groups in advance at Granada. Under you arbitrary 30 point per judge rule Vintage would have to be moved up. Granite Bay warrants a music score 40 points higher than some of their closest competition in Advanced. However, their limited facility and rehearsal time would make competing in scholastic a very difficult task when it comes to the GE score.

Do you understand my points? A)The spread might be huge from 1st to 2nd just based on what groups show up to a given competition. 2nd place one weekend might mean 4th at finals. B) Just because a group scores well above the others by one judge, doesn't mean they will be so fortunate in the other caption.


Better toys,

When better toys are used correctly, they give you a better balance. Im not just talking about a sound system, Im talking tuned drums, Im talking 3+ marimbas and Vibraphones, Im talking about professional orchestration and drill. Im talking about all the fund-raising those schools had to do to get those toys. I sincerely hope this wasn't really the first time you learned better equipment, instructors and show will give you an competitive advantage.

If I cant hear the pit, or snares, or basses, or quads. I have no idea if what I'm seeing is clean, or how it works with the other elements to give you credit for orchestration. Not to mention trying to achieve any kind of seniority of voice. This activity is not just about who has the best drumline and pit. Its about the whole package. Toys help but at the same time they dont play themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:18 pm 
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I have to agree that in order for Springstowne to compete in WGI much of the equipment mentioned is manditory (all very old and ready to fall apart). Not so with NCBA if that were true LPO would be running away with the open division. And it is also true that toys with little or no training are worthless. But to say that 3 pts. is that same as 30 and should be acted on the same way is fuzzy math. The issue I see is one of consistency of judging throught out the season across the captions regardless of who shows up to compete. Because the sheet applications, the sub caption boxes, and the comparative ranking and ratings vary so wildly based on who is on the stand, it is difficult to get a fix on what to do with your individual unit to improve their ranking.(this of course after the normative training and performance corrections).


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:07 pm 
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Steven...I tell ya ... it was a goal to go from novice to scholastic in one year. We came very close.

I do appreciate your passion and the time you take to give me your perception. We will disagree: 30 or more points between first and second place is absolutely understandable and that first place ensemble staying in the same division.

Again, if Dublin can make up that 40 point difference from March 5th to April 2nd ... that will be amazing. It may be on a lesser level of the federal government saying NCLB by 2014 all students will be PROFICIENT and above in their core subjects!! It would be good for others following our discussion to let us know if you have been one of those ensembles who was able to make up a 40 point difference in four weeks.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:33 am 
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gcarrasco wrote:
But to say that 3 pts. is that same as 30 and should be acted on the same way is fuzzy math.


If someone wants to post a recap I can be very clear with the math.

_________________
Fairfield High 2007-2009
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Reed High 1998-1999, 2001-2003, 2007-2008
Instructor/Arranger/Visual
Spanish Springs 2001-2003
Instructor/Arranger/Visual
Mandarins 2006-2007
Instructor – Battery


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:15 am 
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I see your logic Steven....I don't think it's worth the argument.

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BD 1993-2011
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BDB Snare Tech - 2012-2014
Foothill HS & California HS Percussion Caption Head - 2009-2014

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:58 am 
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Your numbers...

Lets be a little more clear. Keeping in mind that if Pleasant Grove wasn't at that competition, Dublin would have been in first place by almost 3 points. You are basically saying Dublin is misclassified and should move up to scholastic.

I think an arbitrary limit of 30 points per judge between second and first is ridiculous. Lets say Spanish Springs and Vintage were the only groups in advance at Granada. Under you arbitrary 30 point per judge rule Vintage would have to be moved up. Granite Bay warrants


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:24 pm 
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gcarrasco wrote:
Your numbers...

Lets be a little more clear. Keeping in mind that if Pleasant Grove wasn't at that competition, Dublin would have been in first place by almost 3 points. You are basically saying Dublin is misclassified and should move up to scholastic.

I think an arbitrary limit of 30 points per judge between second and first is ridiculous. Lets say Spanish Springs and Vintage were the only groups in advance at Granada. Under you arbitrary 30 point per judge rule Vintage would have to be moved up. Granite Bay warrants


Well, to paraphrase a network "fair and balanced." I say 'fair & balance' George because there seems to be a couple of zings towards Steven & me. Cool. I just believe that when there are only two judges and one judge has second place by 30 or more points (NOTHING FOCUSED ON STEVEN...DHS was behind two different schools with two different judges and one of those schools gets moved up) that 2nd place school will not have a chance to be in first. A third judge may counter such a wide spread.
I really do appreciate the passion and respect in the conversation... someone may have used the word "argument." Perception is reality. I am sincerely attempting to know (not argue) how 30-40 point spread between first and second and that first place group NOT being moved up is 'good' for our association. I am getting closer to understanding. For me, I can understand and still disagree. It is what it is.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:04 pm 
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Y'o Psalm, I understand, my statement was to simply point out an obvious error in math. Trust I have fought the numbers battle many a time to no avail. Just in recent experience my drumline has scored 79\80 in CCGC only to recieve a 76.55 at Logan Regional. At that same regional Bethal scored an 81.70 at finals placing third in finals and Foothill scored a 76.70 and did not even make finals; yet a week later at Granada they beat Bethal by less than a point (with the help of penalties).I realize NCBA is not WGI but good is good etc... By the way I don't zing ask my students. As I have previously stated, my concerns are about consistent, unbaised, comparable judging, and believe me I have spoken to Mark Thurston of WGI in-person about this same issue at the before mentioned regional. I enjoy the discourse. George.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:26 am 
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Can I just state the obvious to all of you [George C, Paul E, etc] ... you are all commenting on "numbers", and, yes, numbers management is a problem in all circuits, BUT -
JUDGES ARE JUDGING THE PERFORMANCE THEY SEE THAT DAY!
I get it that WGI is supposedly the end all be all of judging, but you can't say "Bethel scored a 79 at CCGC, and a 76 at WGI" ... the two were on different days, against different competition. They same holds true for Bethel vs. Foothill ... different days, and different SHEETS and criteria! Just because Bethel beat Foothill at WGI doesn't mean they should beat Foothill everytime.
Also, keep in mind, scores are relative to the other performances that day ... if group one comes out and is amazing and scores high, generally speaking scores will be higher overall that day since they set the bar high!


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:42 am 
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gcarrasco wrote:
Just in recent experience my drumline has scored 79\80 in CCGC only to recieve a 76.55 at Logan Regional. At that same regional Bethal scored an 81.70 at finals placing third in finals and Foothill scored a 76.70 and did not even make finals; yet a week later at Granada they beat Bethal by less than a point (with the help of penalties).I realize NCBA is not WGI but good is good etc... By the way I don't zing ask my students. As I have previously stated, my concerns are about consistent, unbaised, comparable judging, and believe me I have spoken to Mark Thurston of WGI in-person about this same issue at the before mentioned regional. I enjoy the discourse. George.



Wait a second, are you complaining that WGI judging isn't consistent with your local circuit scores?!

WGI is a national circuit with judge training sessions held every year. If you want consistency from your local circuit to WGI, you need to participate in a local circuit that uses WGI judges. (SCPA, NCPA, etc)


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:46 pm 
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Georgie wrote:
Can I just state the obvious to all of you [George C, Paul E, etc] ... you are all commenting on "numbers", and, yes, numbers management is a problem in all circuits, BUT -
JUDGES ARE JUDGING THE PERFORMANCE THEY SEE THAT DAY!
I get it that WGI is supposedly the end all be all of judging, but you can't say "Bethel scored a 79 at CCGC, and a 76 at WGI" ... the two were on different days, against different competition. They same holds true for Bethel vs. Foothill ... different days, and different SHEETS and criteria! Just because Bethel beat Foothill at WGI doesn't mean they should beat Foothill everytime.
Also, keep in mind, scores are relative to the other performances that day ... if group one comes out and is amazing and scores high, generally speaking scores will be higher overall that day since they set the bar high!

Glad we agree that numbers management is a problem :yeah: .
There is much agreement with your message. And with that being said, let's continue to find solutions to the problems so our students are not the "benefactors" of "our" problems. One more time: OUR ENSEMBLE WILL HAVE TO MAKE UP A FORTY POINT DEFICIT TO HAVE A CHANCE AT PLACING AHEAD OF "THE BAY" AT CHAMPS. I look forward to seeing how close our ensemble (and by the way... all the other groups that finished more than 40 points behind "The Bay") come to making a tremendous comeback as the "underdogs." "Why so serious?" - The Joker Just having fun...right? BREATHE...


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:03 pm 
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judging has been NCBA's problem for a long time. and until its resolved, it will continue to been seen as a lesser circuit. Little or no consistency from show to show, huge point spreads between placings.....this isnt a reflection from "show to show". I highly doubt one week a groups performance warrants, for example, a 65, then the following week jumps up to a 79? As someone once put it, "judging in NCBA is wack."


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:27 pm 
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STech2000 wrote:
judging has been NCBA's problem for a long time. and until its resolved, it will continue to been seen as a lesser circuit. Little or no consistency from show to show, huge point spreads between placings.....this isnt a reflection from "show to show". I highly doubt one week a groups performance warrants, for example, a 65, then the following week jumps up to a 79? As someone once put it, "judging in NCBA is wack."


:cry:
OUCH. Well, I do believe that Brian can help get things to work better. He has returned every phone call I have made. He has listened to me with a heart of empathy. I understand the "wack" comment. However, as a member of NCBA since the first year(hosted a band review for five years; hosted the first season of Winter shows; etc.) ...we have ways to fix this. Brian still has my vote of confidence to "fix" things. Brian needs more time and support to bring change. So, please bring your concerns to Brian. Give him a chance to understand your frustrations. He needs to have some "data" to help him make informed decisions. Thanks for your posts...


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:46 pm 
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its not that Brian cant fix things, but i mean, look at some of the comments here, people STILL think there isnt anything wrong with this circuit! "oh, the groups just played better from week to week.....oh, the judges just give scores on what they see".....seriously??? c'mon people! The first step is admitting theres a problem. Its fine if a FEW people understand theres problems that need fixing, but whenever those problems are brought up, soooooo many people get offended and angry. How has WGI, CVGPC, SJVCGPR, SCPA, and all the other circuits become so big? How have they gained corporate sponsors and support?? Because they've adapted to the changes this sport has brought over the years, not stayed stuck in the past.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:02 pm 
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STech2000 wrote:
its not that Brian cant fix things, but i mean, look at some of the comments here, people STILL think there isnt anything wrong with this circuit! "oh, the groups just played better from week to week.....oh, the judges just give scores on what they see".....seriously??? c'mon people! The first step is admitting theres a problem. Its fine if a FEW people understand theres problems that need fixing, but whenever those problems are brought up, soooooo many people get offended and angry. How has WGI, CVGPC, SJVCGPR, SCPA, and all the other circuits become so big? How have they gained corporate sponsors and support?? Because they've adapted to the changes this sport has brought over the years, not stayed stuck in the past.

Welcome to SOFT AMERICA!! "...but whenever those problems are brought up, sooooooooooo many people get offended and angry." Get the book and you will see where we are going... http://www.amazon.com/Hard-America-Soft ... 1400053064

Thanks again for your response. GOOD ENERGY.


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