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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:06 am 
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Not all instructional staffs are created equal, paid or not. Judges support a division change, either up or down, by giving high scoring margins either low or high. I still believe a Director should have the ability to move their unit up from a recommended division.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:14 pm 
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Or we can just scrap all the current classes NCBA has and start from square one. I don't know maybe even use the scholastic boundaries and classification definitions as set by WGI since they are the standard in this sport...they seem to work everywhere else (even with minor adjustments)
Quote:
CLASSIFICATIONS
2.1 Percussion Scholastic World (PSW) ensembles demonstrate a virtuostic level of performance and
design. All members contribute equally to the advanced level skills expected from participation in this class.
Program design and development is at the most sophisticated level in the Scholastic division.
2.2 Percussion Scholastic Open (PSO) ensembles demonstrate intermediate skills and concepts. These
ensemble have experience in the indoor activity and have moved beyond basic skills, but not yet ready for the
advance skills and concepts expected in PSW.
2.3 Percussion Scholastic A (PSA) ensembles demonstrate basic skills and concepts. Performers strive to
achieve basic musical and technical skill sets as well as facilitate beginning concepts of movement. A class
ensembles incorporate moderate challenges in regard to orchestration and content.
2.4 Percussion Scholastic Concert World (PSCW) is an advanced level concert percussion ensemble that
participates in the activity with emphasis on percussion performance without the presence of drill.
Instrumentation must be oriented to the performance of concert percussion. Movement is permitted for
equipment changes and for better presentation of musical performance only. One non-student conductor is
allowed to direct the ensemble and must be stationed inside the competition area. Ensembles in the Scholastic World Class demonstrate advanced level musical skills and concepts.
2.5 Percussion Scholastic Concert Open (PSCO) is an intermediate level concert percussion ensemble
that participates in the activity with emphasis on percussion performance without the presence of drill.
Instrumentation must be oriented to the performance of concert percussion. Movement is permitted for
equipment changes and for better presentation of musical performance only. One non-student conductor is
allowed to direct the ensemble and must be stationed inside the competition area. Open class ensembles
demonstrate intermediate musical and technical skills. The programming and orchestration primarily
incorporates intermediate design, with the possibility of incorporating limited advance concepts.
2.6 Percussion Scholastic Concert A (PSCA) is a beginning level concert percussion ensemble that
participates in the activity with emphasis on percussion performance without the presence of drill.
Instrumentation must be oriented to the performance of concert percussion. Movement is permitted for
equipment changes and for better presentation of musical performance only. One non-student conductor is
allowed to direct the ensemble and must be stationed inside the competition area. Class A percussion
ensembles demonstrate basic musical and technical skills and incorporate basic challenges in regard to
orchestration and content.

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Calvin D. Carr
Director of Music -Pixley Middle School & Pixley Elementary
http://www.pixley.k12.ca.us


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:30 pm 
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I really dont want to see a straight clone of WGI for NCBA. I would have to be giving out 30's and 40's to some of our novice groups if I was really following the sheets. Not a very motivating figure for first year groups.

Another problem with a straight adoption of WGI sheets... The top groups from NCBA (Bethel, Fairfield, Benecia, Foothill ext.) compete in open at WGI (and receive scores 7-10 points lower than NCBA open). There is only one marching division below Open in WGI. So This idea basically puts scholastic, advanced and novice all in WGI's "Scholastic A".

What do we do from there? Call our Open class lines "World", call the scholastic lines "Open"? You are still left throwing advanced and novice together in a pseudo-"Scholastic-A". Judging some of our novice groups on WGI "Scholastic A" sheets, I would be handing out 40s. Our open lines would probably pull in mid to high 70s on WGI "World" sheets. Do we inflate the scores? If so how much? These are hardly minor adjustments.

I do think its important we reward the same criteria groups are acknowledged for in WGI. It can be frustrating for some of our open lines when they have to design a show that pleases both WGI and NCBA. I just think a straight adaptation of WGI rules would be very problematic.

***
We do have an ongoing problem, overpopulated novice division.
Here is the easy fix as far as I see.
Split novice into 2 divisions, call one of them intermediate. This idea was somewhat implemented two years ago at finals (novice a and b). Off the top of my head I think that would leave you with 7-10 groups in each division. Good competition without getting lost in a sea of comparison.

Novice
Intermediate (or any other synonymous choice for medium)
Advanced
Scholastic
Open
***

Great job to all the performing groups today at Granada!

_________________
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Reed High 1998-1999, 2001-2003, 2007-2008
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Spanish Springs 2001-2003
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Mandarins 2006-2007
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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:14 am 
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EVALUATION SHOW!!!!
Ummm... I have shared my frustration. March 5th (will not disclose site or judge) - 40 point spread between 1st place and 2nd place ADVANCE PERCUSSION; March 19th (will not disclose site or DIFFERENT judge) - 36 point spread between DIFFERENT 1st place and SAME 2ND PLACE Advance percussion. How can this happen?! The same school comes in second place by 36 points or more behind two different schools AND BY TWO DIFFERENT JUDGES. At least, the March 19th FIRST PLACE line has been bumped up and I wish them the best in Scholastic.

With that being said, could this 36 - 40 point gap be avoided with said eval show??? With that being said, could this 36-40 point gap show we need to continue to evaluate our (INCLUDES ME) judges (reminder THERE WERE TWO DIFFERENT JUDGES WHO HAD THE 2ND PLACE ADVANCE LINE BEHIND FIRST BY 36-40 POINTS??? :crazy: ?

I am truly ready for a response to help me teach my students and ME how this is happening. AND PLEASE NO MORE...it's not about the judges CRUD. As long as the students feel good... WE DID AND DO!! We get that. However, that doesn't help with the TWO WEEKS of attempting to understand how we are 36 points behind first place 4th or 5th week of the "season!!" ALSO please Stop it is not about the judges...if it is not about the judges, then why have them So stop that...please :)


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:55 am 
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Perhaps this will clarify, or perhaps make it more opaque...

I imagine I was one of the Judges you are not naming from yesterday. I write down the sub-caption score I feel is appropriate in each category, (comp./perf.) keeping in mind the size of the spread, then add it up. I stand by the numbers i handed out yesterday. If the judge is doing his job correctly, all the high school marching numbers should be comparable across divisions.

The advanced group in question, I actually had them 2nd of 4 in scholastic (they were approaching elk grove in design and execution). Big red flag for me. This group is probably misclassified.

Me and the other judge were in agreement. We let the head judge know and he spoke to the group. Now hypothetically speaking, if the groups instructor or band director did not want to move up and had reasonable concerns, I doubt they would be bumped. However I think 2nd place in scholastic is much more respectable than 1st in advanced by a huge margin.

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Reed High 1998-1999, 2001-2003, 2007-2008
Instructor/Arranger/Visual
Spanish Springs 2001-2003
Instructor/Arranger/Visual
Mandarins 2006-2007
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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:26 pm 
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Steven wrote:
Perhaps this will clarify, or perhaps make it more opaque...

I imagine I was one of the Judges you are not naming from yesterday. I write down the sub-caption score I feel is appropriate in each category, (comp./perf.) keeping in mind the size of the spread, then add it up. I stand by the numbers i handed out yesterday. If the judge is doing his job correctly, all the high school marching numbers should be comparable across divisions.

The advanced group in question, I actually had them 2nd of 4 in scholastic (they were approaching elk grove in design and execution). Big red flag for me. This group is probably misclassified.

Me and the other judge were in agreement. We let the head judge know and he spoke to the group. Now hypothetically speaking, if the groups instructor or band director did not want to move up and had reasonable concerns, I doubt they would be bumped. However I think 2nd place in scholastic is much more respectable than 1st in advanced by a huge margin.


Having 15 minutes ago spoken to Brian...I feel "better" about having FOR TWO CONSECUTIVE shows (for us March 5 & 19) our ensemble finish 2nd place - 36 points or more behind 1st place-especially considering this is our first year competing in a higher division. My only concern is 40 points between first & second place sure does make it difficult for the ensemble to finish higher than second place. "Places don't matter." REALLY?! We can agree to disagree. Then why have judges? Trophies? Places?


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:37 pm 
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Psalm 56 wrote:
our ensemble finish 2nd place - 36 points or more behind 1st place-especially considering this is our first year competing in a higher division.


If you are 36 points away from first place (out of 1000), your first year moving up, I think you are doing just fine. Keep it up!

_________________
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Instructor/Arranger/Visual
Reed High 1998-1999, 2001-2003, 2007-2008
Instructor/Arranger/Visual
Spanish Springs 2001-2003
Instructor/Arranger/Visual
Mandarins 2006-2007
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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:44 pm 
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Steven wrote:
Psalm 56 wrote:
our ensemble finish 2nd place - 36 points or more behind 1st place-especially considering this is our first year competing in a higher division.


If you are 36 points away from first place (out of 1000), your first year moving up, I think you are doing just fine. Keep it up!


Perception is reality. Nice...I like that...However, to me it's not out of 1000; it's out of one hundred. Why?! Because in my reality there is 100 point margin given within each division. So, I see 36 points as huge based on a 100 point scale and then third place being seven-to-fifteen points behind us a bit more reasonable. Seven lines in a division - First place being 36 point higher than seventh place ...we get that.

I do very much appreciate your nice pat on the back. Our students have made tremendous progress!! Thank you..


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:57 pm 
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Assuming that all the scoring throughout the 4 percussion divisions is linear...

and assuming judges aren't "tweaking" the scores within various divisions to keep them so....

Then if a group is PLACING or even in the middle of the division above, and beating the groups in their current division by significant amounts, they should have been moved up by the judges at their first show or second show.

And who is in charge of the group who saw that plainly and did not ask to be moved up? Because I am not a percussionist and my perc instructors are usually novices, I ask the judges EVERY year at my first show if we are in the right division, or if we should move up or down.

Both Steven and Paul are totally right..the WGI system wouldn't work in NCBA, we probably need another division (we voted on that some years ago but the Perc guys shot it down) and we need to take the placement of said groups out of the hands of the instructors. Experience has shown there are always a small number of instructors who will deliberately mis-place their group to win more.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:12 pm 
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Thank you Jeff. I can explain it till I am blue in the face. BUT TWO TIMES IN A ROW AND TO HAVE THE WIDEST POINT SPREAD is frustrating. Yes...in the grand scheme of life..it is what it is. I get it.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:21 pm 
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The two times in a row, was to different groups, yes?

The school in question, won their first show by less than a point. There were no scholastic groups that day to compare scores with. The second show, they won by just over one point (before penalties). Their score would have put them last in scholastic that day.

They have voluntarily moved up to scholastic after this weekend. So there really isn't an issue here.

Not to say it doesn't happen. I just don't think this is an example of groups intentionally staying in a lower division to win awards.

_________________
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Instructor/Arranger/Visual
Reed High 1998-1999, 2001-2003, 2007-2008
Instructor/Arranger/Visual
Spanish Springs 2001-2003
Instructor/Arranger/Visual
Mandarins 2006-2007
Instructor – Battery


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:34 pm 
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Psalm 56 I feel your pain... I thought I had problems. A 40 pt. difference between first and second is unjustifiable in all but the highest division (where else could you go?). The fact that it has taken this long to get some movement is absurd. I don't know that the judges carry more responsibility, than the responsibility to report the spread as a justification to move the Line in question up to the next division.

Steven's suggestion that more divisions may be needed is a good one if the numbers in each division justifies it (there is the cost factor).

I also agree with Steven's comment that marching numbers should be comparable across classes, should this also be true for music? G.E. wait...this is how WGI scores, look out.

I also agree NCBA is not WGI and shouldn't be. But yes we could learn from their sheets and definitions. (maybe judge evaluation and training).

Sounds to me Brian is on the possible correction, Go Brian!

The Winterguard/Drumline activity is competitive, to suggest otherwise is naive at best. So scores matter! Comparisons matter! Ranking within divisions and across divisions matters! Week to week growth and consistency matters! Good, Consistent, Unbiased, well trained judging MATTERS!

Remember, Wintergurd/Drumline is Not a band review. The need to educate and evaluate is everpresent but much that goes on, on a reviewing stand cannot and should not go on a Winterguard/Drumline judging stand.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:52 pm 
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Steven wrote:
The two times in a row, was to different groups, yes?

The school in question, won their first show by less than a point. There were no scholastic groups that day to compare scores with. The second show, they won by just over one point (before penalties). Their score would have put them last in scholastic that day.

They have voluntarily moved up to scholastic after this weekend. So there really isn't an issue here.

Not to say it doesn't happen. I just don't think this is an example of groups intentionally staying in a lower division to win awards.


I am not implying "sand bagging." I don't care about that issue - too hard to prove anyway. I am IMPLYING that 40 points between FIRST AND SECOND PLACE is too big of a spread be it two full weeks prior to championships OR EVEN FOUR WEEKS PRIOR TO CHAMPIONSHIPS. Making up 40 points is tough.

Would it be "appropriate" to hope/pray/wish that my students have improved by 41 points in four weeks (by Championships) to have a chance to finish ahead of the school that "beat" them? Or... is there a chance that the point spread could be larger than 40 points - if that other group has improved in their four weeks of competition? That is my point...realistically - when I see a forty point gap, I think, "Wow...what are we going to have to do to make up that forty point difference in four weeks?!" If there was a 15 point difference between FIRST AND SECOND PLACE, I could see us whittling away at those 15 points!! Gonna be interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:46 pm 
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Honestly it sounds like if you don't have a chance at winning advance your first year moving up, you think everyone else above you is misclassified. The group above you got moved up so theoretically your group got first. So Psalm 56, and I would appreciate an answer, what more do you want at this point???

2nd place at any given competition might mean 4th or 5th place at finals when every group shows up. The Judge might be telling you, "Yes you are second at this competition but much closer to third than first. You might not have a chance at first, but you need to worry about those guys in third and fourth place."

A 40 point spread from 1st to 2nd might just be representing the competition on a given day. One group standing out above the rest. It happens a lot. A 15 point spread (7.5 out of 500 per sub-caption), the one that would apparently make you feel warm and fuzzy on the inside, can be just the difference between a good run and a bad run.

I wouldn't "hope wish or pray"... I would rewrite the worst moment in the show. I would clean the dirtiest part. I would hold extra sectionals outside of rehearsal time and convey to the students that they really need to put in extra work to make up that 40 point difference. I would work on my sound reinforcement to make sure no group with a better sound system beats me.

Again, with the group above you moved up, what more do you want Psalm?

_________________
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Reed High 1998-1999, 2001-2003, 2007-2008
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Spanish Springs 2001-2003
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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:01 pm 
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Since you asked 'what more do I want' Steve...FOR NO GROUP to be in second place by 30 or more points AND THEN THAT FIRST PLACE GROUP DOESN'T GET BUMPED UP. With a 30-40 'cushion' us other folks can't make that up with the other judge. And let me point out something...MAKE SURE NO ONE'S SOUND SYSTEM IS BETTER THAN YOUR'S or WORKS BETTER THAN YOUR'S. (paraphrased). So, those with the most or the "best" toys / equipment do have an advantage. Cool. That confirms what frustrates many about the activity. I defend the activity. I judge the activity and I can empathize with those schools frustrated because they will never win because they "don't have 'enough.'
Sincerely appreciate our dialogue. Thank you...


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