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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:05 am 
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Drum Major
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Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:13 pm
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Location: Oroville, CA (the boonies)
Well guys, back when my wife was VP of Winter Activities we put groups in divisions by the average of their past years scores (which has been working very well for parade bands in SO Cal for YEARS) ....then, we MONITORED each and every score for EVERY group at every contest, and if they were scoring way out of division we called ALL the judges and talked to the about the groups placement, and if they were "out of their league" (one way OR the other) we moved them for the next show.

The result of this? Group after group was moved UP and we ended up with the most balanced divisions in NCBA history (more in OPEN, more in Scholastic, etc). In years previously we were competing with like 4 open groups, 6 scholastic, 15 in advanced and 40 in notice....

As we put people in charge who DO NOT want to do all that work, or don't have time to do all that work, or don't think its necessary, what have we seen for the past several years?? Groups keep lowering themselves in divisions trying to win more awards, and now we are back to a few open, several scholastic, a thousand in advanced and a billion in novice.

THE RULES of the NCBA state that the groups MUST (REPEAT..MUST) be placed in their divisions by the average of their last years scores. IS that how this years placements were done? Or, has that rule been ignored and instructors allowed to place their own groups in divisions again? I do not know. But I do know you cannot have a system based on "ability level" where instructors get to choose their own divisions. It would be more fair just to base it on school size!!!

And, quite honestly, judges are reluctant to move groups unless you corner them and push the issue. So don't count on seeing all those advanced groups move up to Scholastic, Paul.

JS

PS- I am NOT in favor of an evaluation show!!!! I have a very limited transportation budget, and if I have to take the group to a mandatory evaluation show, that means they have to skip finals, or some other show. All you bay area people need to not forget we are spread out from Fresno to Oroville and Reno to San Francisco. NO other organization has to cover that distance. How about a mandatory evaluation show on DVD? Mail it in to a judges panel?


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 3:34 pm
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Location: Salinas, CA
Or have a couple of evaluation shows in different regions on the same day. Just a thought. The mail in is not bad either. Big party for judges, popcorn, DVD's on TV. No one has to be carefull in what they say..... :rotf:

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:48 pm 
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Drum Major
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Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:13 pm
Posts: 1727
Location: Oroville, CA (the boonies)
Brad wrote:
Or have a couple of evaluation shows in different regions on the same day. Just a thought. The mail in is not bad either. Big party for judges, popcorn, DVD's on TV. No one has to be carefull in what they say..... :rotf:


HECK YEAH Brad...I've got a 120" projector TV, they can use my stuff and I'll supply the popcorn! Seriously though, we could even stipulate like 2 camera shots on the DVD, one from the "box" and the other at floor level so they can see individual technique better. Whatever....it could work!
Save money, save time, have more judges there to evaluate...etc. Win-win.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:46 pm 
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JCYS wrote:
Well guys, back when my wife was VP of Winter Activities we put groups in divisions by the average of their past years scores (which has been working very well for parade bands in SO Cal for YEARS) ....then, we MONITORED each and every score for EVERY group at every contest, and if they were scoring way out of division we called ALL the judges and talked to the about the groups placement, and if they were "out of their league" (one way OR the other) we moved them for the next show.

The result of this? Group after group was moved UP and we ended up with the most balanced divisions in NCBA history (more in OPEN, more in Scholastic, etc). In years previously we were competing with like 4 open groups, 6 scholastic, 15 in advanced and 40 in notice....

As we put people in charge who DO NOT want to do all that work, or don't have time to do all that work, or don't think its necessary, what have we seen for the past several years?? Groups keep lowering themselves in divisions trying to win more awards, and now we are back to a few open, several scholastic, a thousand in advanced and a billion in novice.

THE RULES of the NCBA state that the groups MUST (REPEAT..MUST) be placed in their divisions by the average of their last years scores. IS that how this years placements were done? Or, has that rule been ignored and instructors allowed to place their own groups in divisions again? I do not know. But I do know you cannot have a system based on "ability level" where instructors get to choose their own divisions. It would be more fair just to base it on school size!!!

And, quite honestly, judges are reluctant to move groups unless you corner them and push the issue. So don't count on seeing all those advanced groups move up to Scholastic, Paul.

JS

PS- I am NOT in favor of an evaluation show!!!! I have a very limited transportation budget, and if I have to take the group to a mandatory evaluation show, that means they have to skip finals, or some other show. All you bay area people need to not forget we are spread out from Fresno to Oroville and Reno to San Francisco. NO other organization has to cover that distance. How about a mandatory evaluation show on DVD? Mail it in to a judges panel?


DVD for evaluation = good idea. I think we need an evaluation show that includes a clinic (so there is some incentive to attend the eval show). ALSO EVAL SHOW SHOULD BE FREE!! to attend ... yet paid admission to watch . And Jeff not bitter or anything but ...how could I forget we are spread out so far when Championships is North of Sacramento 2011 and South of Modesto in 2012??? Really... ?? Again, I say we should have championships at THE STOCKTON ARENA EVERY YEAR ooorrr 2011 North of Sacramento; 2012 SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE BAY AREA (the majority of the association lives closest to the Bay Area); 2013 South of Modesto; 2014 Back in the Bay Area; 2015 North of Sacramento; 2016 Bay Area; 2017 South of Modesto; and so forth and so on. Tongue firmly planted in cheek: HOW DO OTHER CIRCUITS MAKE IT (host eval show) WORK AND NCBA"can not?" I do think the statement that judges will be hesitant to move groups (which I have some agreement with you) SCREAMS for an evaluation show.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:18 pm 
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Posts: 4
So I have been watching the forum for several years and finally can't hold my tongue any longer. As to the recent posts, I don't feel that judges are reluctant to move any group up or down (if needed) no one pressures me or "corners me and pushes the issue." I tell them what I think and they can choose to listen or not. We have to remember that we "judges and directors" are here to educate first and then promote healthy competition.

Taken from the NCBA Winter Rules Sheet:

The purpose of NCBA Winterguard and Winter Percussion is to educate and encourage performance and musical excellence. To that means and to insure consistency, our philosophy is to establish perimeters that will allow for creativity while at the same time provide structure and limits that promote all band programs, regardless of size or funding, to have equal opportunity.

Having divisions based on school size is absolutely ridicules. When some schools have a program in its infancy or no feeder program competing against schools that have a huge budget for instructors and staff with middle school programs as well. I mean come on are you really serious? I stopped choosing reviews that bought in to that train of thought years ago.

1. Standing – High school percussion programs that stand in position only. No mvt.
2. Novice – High School Percussion Programs with little experience and median level of equipment facility.
3. Amateur – High school percussion programs with moderate experience and moderate level of equipment facility
4. Scholastic – High School Percussion Programs with advanced experience and advanced level of equipment facility.
5. Open – High School Percussion Programs with sophisticated competitive units with complex facility and body movement.
6. Exhibition – Percussion units who do not want to compete. Performing units have the option of being evaluated by the adjudication panel.

I don't know about you, but it seems clear to me. Who decides is another question. I would like to see an eval show, but when do you do it. Early season, some groups don't have their shows done and could be placed incorrectly. I do agree with the fact that some instructors lower their groups in the hopes to get more trophies. Where is the director? And if it is the director, what are you thinking. What is a trophy, a hunk of plastic and fake wood. Care about your students performances not about what someone else thinks that has no idea where your students started from and doesn't know what their best is. We are here to have FUN after all, right?

Understand that when one group changes, it has a huge ripple effect on the rest of the season. If group A moves up, the line-up for next weeks show has to be changed. What about programs that are already printed, and director packets already sent out. You "director" Show up at a show and find out that you time has been moved up 20 min or even 30 because two groups have been moved to another division. I know you say 20 min big deal, but if it happens to you and your equipment truck is running late "YOU" would be pissed off.

I'm done.................for now


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:03 pm 
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I appreciate your post 10r_Line.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:16 pm 
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New Recruit
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Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:11 pm
Posts: 62
Location: Sunnyvale, California
10r_line I see what you are saying.
The divisions state what levels groups are attempting. Defining those categories is something that a few of us have thought about for years. Hopefully we will be able to present a more clear content based description. This would lay out what individual and ensembles within each class are attempting.
As you would guess, it will take a lot of tweaking to put our finger on exactly what costitutes Novice from Advanced and so on. Something like this will help directors place their groups in the appropriate divisions. It will also allow them to see what content is required to compete at a certain level.

We may then not experience flam 5's in a novice show???!!!! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:53 pm 
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OK... I will take a risk. A 40 point gap between 1st & 2nd from one judge?! What does that mean? And the first place group is still in ADVANCED?! HHHMMM.... I know the answers to my questions will only be speculation.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:14 pm 
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That my friend is a great question to ask those involved, agreed! :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:56 pm 
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mrbrianplowman wrote:
That my friend is a great question to ask those involved, agreed! :shock:


Thank Mr. Plowman. HOPE YOU ARE DOING GREAT!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:41 am 
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Location: Sunnyvale, California
Great and Thanks! See you at NCBA Champs in Del Oro.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:16 am 
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I recorded the "Open Class" percussion units at the Fairfield competition, from a corner perspective, hopefully it suits everyone's needs for education and enjoyment. Though, if you would like a video taken down, please let me know! Also, you'll see that I included Benicia HS, but did not give a link, because I know they compete outside the circuit and I do not know if they would like their video released at this time. All videos will be released after the season!

Rodriguez HS from Fairfield, California
    Performing their show entitled "Contradiction"

Vallejo HS from Vallejo, California
    Performing their show entitled "Flux"

Del Oro HS from Loomis, California
    Performing their show entitled "Perspectives"

Benicia HS from Benicia, California
    Performing their show entitled "Rising Tides"

Foothill HS from Pleasanton, California
    Performing their show entitled "When Two Are One"

If there is anyone that would like their unit recorded, please feel free to message me and I will do my best to fulfill your request!


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:34 pm 
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keystroke wrote:
I recorded the "Open Class" percussion units at the Fairfield competition, from a corner perspective, hopefully it suits everyone's needs for education and enjoyment. Though, if you would like a video taken down, please let me know! Also, you'll see that I included Benicia HS, but did not give a link, because I know they compete outside the circuit and I do not know if they would like their video released at this time. All videos will be released after the season!

Rodriguez HS from Fairfield, California
    Performing their show entitled "Contradiction"

Vallejo HS from Vallejo, California
    Performing their show entitled "Flux"

Del Oro HS from Loomis, California
    Performing their show entitled "Perspectives"

Benicia HS from Benicia, California
    Performing their show entitled "Rising Tides"

Foothill HS from Pleasanton, California
    Performing their show entitled "When Two Are One"

If there is anyone that would like their unit recorded, please feel free to message me and I will do my best to fulfill your request!


Eventhough I do not have a line in open...thanks for this!!


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:32 am 
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Location: California
Thanks for the videos!

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 NCBA Winter season
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:52 am 
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Drum Major
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Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:13 pm
Posts: 1727
Location: Oroville, CA (the boonies)
OK, how's this for an idea:

class the groups by the number of instructors they have (paid and unpaid) multiplied by the hours per week they rehearse.

Seems fair.


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