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In your opinion, should there be a moratorium on ALL standardized testing for at least 2 years?
Yes 91%  91%  [ 32 ]
No 8%  8%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 35
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 Post subject: Re: How to save money in education.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:40 pm 
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Chapagne wrote:
IsnipeWithAknife wrote:
focus more on sciences and math. Stimulate interest and improve our scores on those fields to be comparable to other countries.
Actually, our best students DO score comparable with other countries. It's the fact that we test everyone, and they do not, that drags down our average.

when I moved here from Singapore, I was at least 1 year ahead in science and math than the other students I was put in.

Chapagne wrote:
Isnipewithaknife wrote:
I don't see why we spend money teaching kids comparative poetry and then telling them you are ready for the real world after high school.

I'm sure over on the World of Poetry site they can come up with plenty of abstract and indirect reasons why studying poetry is more important that it would seem on the surface, just like we can do with music. How about...studying it helps develop overall language and writing skills. You'll need those if you're going to study anything in college.

In my opinion, well-roundedness is overrated. I do believe we should have an education that covers all fields of study but we don't focus enough on marketable skills that add to the workforce. Why do we provide the same amount of time in class for math as comparative poetry? Are they both equally important in today's world? If we can only afford to have an education that is a nearly round shaped polygon, but we'll survive this budget crisis so be it. Sustainability FIRST!

Please note I'm not trying to bash the English subject area as poetry is the only example I have of a class we could do without in troubling times.

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 Post subject: Re: How to save money in education.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:46 am 
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I don't really know of many public schools that offer only a poetry class for an entire semster/year. From what I know Poetry is a single unit within the confines of a regular English class.

Who says that poetry or any other non-core subject areas are not maketable or important to the job market? That's the exact thinking that is going to screw over arts and music programs. While I understand your point, it has to be said that not everyone is going to want to become businessmen, scientists, or computer programmer. There are going to be people who want to become teachers, janitors, mechanics, gardeners; regular every day people who work a regular job.

Sure, you need the engineers to design the buildings, but guess what, you need construction workers to build them. All the way from the super on the job down to the guy who digs the ditches. Once the building is made you need people to fill it from the CEO to mailroom workers to secretaries to custodians. Are you telling me that people who have no interest in becoming CEO's or computer engineers should be forced into the same type of classes as people who do? People are too busy crunching formulas and writing computer interface programs that they can't take the time to enjoy something beautiful and magical as a piece of art or a musical performance. We are being taught that these things are unimportant and superfluous to life.

I personally feel that too much emphasis is placed on AP, honors, and IB courses and the "middle, at risk student" that we in education are always trying to find and save is not being allowed to do what they truly love because it has been cut to make more room for math, science, and technologically based programs. Thus, education is creating its own paradox, eliminating programs that the "middle" student would excel in therefore creating that "middle" student in the first place.

Yes, is society going in the direction of technology and math and science, yeah it is. But again, it takes many people to make the world go round. If there are people who want to follow the path of "unmarketable" programs then it is the responsibility of the educational system to provide them with those opportunities, not to force everyone into the same mold.

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 Post subject: Re: How to save money in education.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:33 am 
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Jsaxm wrote:
I don't really know of many public schools that offer only a poetry class for an entire semster/year. From what I know Poetry is a single unit within the confines of a regular English class.


I didn't have time to read your entire post, but I was basically going to say the same thing you said in the above quoted portion. We don't spend as much time on poetry as on Math. If you ask me English is a MORE important skill to learn than math (or your respective countries native language), I use English everyday and work with many people who have very poor English skills making communication in the workplace difficult. I do use some math at work, but I do pretty much zero of it in my head. They provide as with calculators, and I just type in the problem, and voila. About 15 minutes of math time and constantly using English everywhere I go, in and out of work. Obviously not everyone's job is going to use that little of math, but if you are entering a field of work that requires you to be good at math, then it is YOUR job to make sure you are good at math. Not your works, not schools, not the government's, just you. But of course letting people choose what they learn is a completely insane system.....

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 Post subject: Re: How to save money in education.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:55 pm 
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Let's see, is education about training your brain (fine arts, poetry, calculus), or filling a file(one's head) with factoids to be tested under the No Child Left in Band act? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: How to save money in education.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:34 pm 
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supermutant wrote:
Let's see, is education about training your brain (fine arts, poetry, calculus), or filling a file(one's head) with factoids to be tested under the No Child Left in Band act? :lol:


Well, sadly, it seems to be more like the last statement in your post...

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 Post subject: Re: How to save money in education.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:19 pm 
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IsnipeWithAknife wrote:
In my opinion, well-roundedness is overrated.
I disagree. If the U.S. goes up against south and southeast Asia in a math skills war, they will lose. There are too many people over there, willing to work for less money and those skills are not difficult to drill in to people. Innovation is going to be one of the keys to the future relevance of the U.S. If we reduce schooling to just math and language arts, as many propose we do, who will be prepared to create new technologies? Take Apple, a company who isn't necessarily leaps and bounds ahead of their competitors when it comes to technology, but has had a great run of providing interfaces people love. That's creativity and I bet the math geeks at Apple didn't come up with it.

The Aceman wrote:
one by letting the kids choose how often they attend school, and which subjects they want to study. From day one, let it be a choice. When kids are forced into things they naturally rebel against it. They are actually more likely to get involved in school and want to do well if they are allowed to make a choice. I'm not talking about a few electives in high school, I'm talking about complete choice.
I think it's important to have students take a variety of classes. Sometimes a subject grabs you in a way you don't expect. If everyone was only studying what they wanted, they miss out on those opportunities. Plus, the adolescent brain isn't quite equipped for good decision-making.
http://www.brainconnection.com/topics/?main=news-in-rev/teen-frontal
What do you propose to do with the kids who choose to study nothing? Plus, consider how many courses you would have to offer to appeal to everyone. It sounds nice, but you could never fund it.

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 Post subject: Re: How to save money in education.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:36 pm 
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The purpose of education is to prepare students to be critical thinkers that will be able to contribute to a democratic society. This is a philosophy that dates back to the early twentieth century.

If someone can explain how bubbling in a bubble on a test demonstrates this, I would REALLY like to know.

Standardized tests ONLY demonstrate how seriously a student takes the tests (which is affected by several variables that the school DOES NOT have control over). It DOES NOT accurately evaluate the effectiveness of instruction. The way the system is set up, eventually EVERY school will be failing to meet AYP.

IT NEEDS TO GO AWAY IMMEDIATELY before public education is allowed to deteriorate even more.

I am open to debate the issue, but if you do not agree please state your background in the field of education.


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 Post subject: Re: How to save money in education.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:17 am 
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they need to bring back beatings and get parents involved in their child's education.

While it would be wonderful if parents were more involved, it isn't going to happen. The U.S. has a large population of infantile adults and it is becoming increasingly so. The schools are going to have to become a support system for kids who don't have one.

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 Post subject: Re: How to save money in education.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:08 pm 
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I never said well roundedness is BAD, but overrated. The reason why it is overrated is because we force kids to believe that well roundedness is soooooooo good that they don't focus on something they would like to specialize when they go to college and we forget to stress the core skills like math, science, and english. I went from Electrical Engineering to History to French to Classics, almost went to linguistics and Physics but went back to History just so I can graduate.

The main point I was trying to make is we need to be sustainable.
We can't be SUSTAINABLE having tons of classes to teach well-roundedness and then run out of money. The solution to our budget problem is to teach a nearly well rounded education by cutting some of the edges like the getting rid of the less effective classes. (assuming if we have to cut education)

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 Post subject: Re: How to save money in education.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:39 pm 
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Are you kidding me?! Do you really believe that there isn't enough emphasis placed on the "core" curriculum in our schools?!

Do you currently work in the field of education? As a teacher, maybe not for as many years as Vore, I can tell you that this is the majority of what is focused on in education these days. I really can't understand how you could think that this is even close to the truth.

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 Post subject: Re: How to save money in education.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:25 pm 
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Jsaxm wrote:
Do you really believe that there isn't enough emphasis placed on the "core" curriculum in our schools?!



Please remember, according to the US Department of Education and the California State Department of Education, the arts are part of the core academic curriculum.


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 Post subject: Re: How to save money in education.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:11 pm 
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But supermutant, the powers that be always disavow policy when it best serves their purposes...

AVID is not core curriculum, but we have AVID and NO art at my school.


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 Post subject: Re: How to save money in education.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:22 pm 
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OK well I'm not an educator, but since my HS experience was completely useless (except for band) I don't see why tax payer dollars were wasted on that. When you fail HS you become an unskilled worker. You pass HS, you become an unskilled worker. Whats the difference? I think its ridiculous that our mandatory education churns out useless people. Why is it even mandatory? Why is it that even with our crap economy we still rely on H1B visas to fill critical jobs.

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 Post subject: Re: How to save money in education.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:35 pm 
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IsnipeWithAknife wrote:
my HS experience was completely useless (except for band)
I see you'll graduate from UCSB next year. "Completely" useless?

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 Post subject: Re: How to save money in education.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:45 pm 
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Chapagne wrote:
IsnipeWithAknife wrote:
my HS experience was completely useless (except for band)
I see you'll graduate from UCSB next year. "Completely" useless?

I got there from playing the system... I don't think I'm any smarter than people who wasn't as good at that.

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