World of Pageantry

World of Pageantry

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:08 pm 
Offline
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 8:48 pm
Posts: 119
Location: Sacramento
San benito high trombone wrote:
What would you think of hearing "Farwell to a Slavic Woman" in L-pattern?



Again, it's a march. Overrated in its musical complexity.

I mean if you uphold to the military traditions while marching it, then it might not be so bad but I would still say that there is a lacking of creativity in music selection. Either try to find an obscure march (there are MANY of them out there!) or do something else.

I would do the latter...pick something that has a good beat and something that you can really get into! It's like fieldshow...taking on the character of the music and making it your own :)

_________________
Once a drum major, always a drum major.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Or....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:55 pm 
Offline
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 am
Posts: 297
or you could just practice your spinning more and forget what you use for your music. Turns out that there are not many points awarded for creativity with music. If you are a competent spinner you can spin to Mary had a little lamb and wipe the floor with the competition. The music is not as big of a deal as you think it is.

_________________
Brennan England
Gretchen A. Whitney High School, Director


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:42 pm 
Offline
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:46 am
Posts: 509
Location: San Francisco
mary had a little lamb sounds good to me :lol:

_________________
Mark L.
Archbishop Riordan Crusader Marching Band (04-07)
Colorguard Instructor


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Or....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:57 pm 
Offline
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 8:48 pm
Posts: 119
Location: Sacramento
DMJUDGE wrote:
or you could just practice your spinning more and forget what you use for your music. Turns out that there are not many points awarded for creativity with music. If you are a competent spinner you can spin to Mary had a little lamb and wipe the floor with the competition. The music is not as big of a deal as you think it is.


Why is that?

I mean, it's a big deal in field conducting. There's more to work with to show off your musicality. I don't really understand why that isn't recognized in the L.

_________________
Once a drum major, always a drum major.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:23 pm 
Offline
New Recruit
New Recruit

Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:30 pm
Posts: 39
Location: IE/LA
Speaking strictly from my own understanding and interpretation, conducting a piece of music is exactly that- conducting a piece of music. Thus, the music matters since it is your interpretation of the score. Performing an L-Pattern, or theoretically performing on the street is not normally interpretive to the music (like for the colorguard). Drum majors don't exactly time a right turn for the band ONLY for a certain part of the march, etc.

Having said all this, if you meant the music should accent the drum major's style, I agree to a point. Yes, the music should ultimately be a reflection of your style as well as a tool to help convey your routine, but it truly should be at most secondary to the routine itself. I've always believed that you should be able to take anything with a good constant marching beat and be able to perform your routine, Mary Had a Little Lamb included.

Ultimately, I must agree with Brennan on this one. The spinning, routine construction, leadership, etc. are being judged, not the fact that you can stop your baton right on the stinger.

Of course, I'm just a long-winded guy who stopped spinning over 10 years ago, so take it all with a large grain of salt. :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:41 pm 
Offline
New Recruit
New Recruit

Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:30 pm
Posts: 39
Location: IE/LA
Oh...and I still say marches and marching music (fight songs, bagpipes, etc.) are the best choice. I absolutely hate seeing a great spinner march to film scores or something like an electronica version of Also Sprach Zarathustra. It seriously makes me wanna punch a wall. :box:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:17 pm 
Offline
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 8:48 pm
Posts: 119
Location: Sacramento
Undoubtedly mikekimchi, you not only are a legendary drum major but also come from a strong line of MOB predecessors and traditions. That is definitely something to be applauded for, and it gives you a lot of clout in the art of drum majoring.

However, even within conducting, it is not simply reading the score and mechanically going about the motions of what the notes say on paper. Fieldshows may provide scores, but most of the field conducting stuff doesn't. We have to go over it "infinity-plus-one" times to mentally understand what is going on, and then visually represent what is going on the field. And you can be creative about the visual aspect because certain things you may do can help accentuate what is going on in the music. The most recent drum major performance that best describes this is from the Granite Bay HS 2006 field performance...check out what she does!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_E0dKth2j4
(by the way...she takes 1st place at this competition!)

Not only that, but there are definitely technical and leadership aspects that are accounted for in field conducting. I do agree that FC affords the competitor liberties to display more in the area of showmanship, but it's not *JUST* "conducting a piece of music".

If that were so, then using a similar premise as what DMJUDGE and yourself used about Mary Had a Little Lamb...then anyone with a good pattern that performs their "routine" should be able to do well (which is totally not the case, btw)

Even in colorguards...they have evolved a great deal over the last several years. They used to be bearers of the national flag...high-mark-timing with those tall/cowboy boots...and now it is more of a dance/visually-packed performance. And even then...there are debates as to the appropriateness of colorguards interpreting the music (specifically, marching straight forward on the street vs. going to the back of the band to complete the visual package). Suffice it to say, the analogy used is a shaky because colorguards have their own issues themselves (with respect to street performance).

Which brings me to my next point. L-patterns are simulations of what takes place on the street, in the same way that winterguard is an extension of what takes place on the street (or field, but let's keep the example simple). Is winterguard the same as street performance? Clearly not. Does that make it any less of an activity? NO WAY!!! Technique, teamwork, and confidence (just to name a few by way of example) are being taught in the winterguard arena. The integrity of the activity is still maintained, and it's the principles that are most important.

SIMILARLY, same goes for the L-pattern. While drum majors still clad themselves in band/military-esque uniforms, the principles of spinning, marching, and leadership remain as non-negotiables (for which I COMPLETELY AGREE with you mikekimchi) in an activity that is slightly less formal than the street...

Which allows the performer to display a little more creativity that they otherwise may not be able to do in a more formal atmosphere like street competition. A number of years ago I saw Jason Paguio perform "Music from the Royal Fireworks" with Scottish Mace. It's not a march...nor a fight song...nor even bagpipes! Yet it was beautifully performed and executed...by a first-year 8th grade competitor! (although he too comes from the long line of legendary competitors from the Paguio clan) :-P

So I guess my point in all of this is the following (in no particular order):

1. Musical selection accentuates the musicianship that the drum major is to possess as the LEADER of the marching band

2. Interpretation provides showmanship within the context of the role given (i.e., tall flags, ID unit, majorettes, drill team, drum major)

3. Field conducting is NOT just conducting a piece of music (sorry bro...I am a BIG field conductor...and I think that point gets majorly butchered especially in Southern California)

Knowing of course that it will be impossible to change the mindset of yourself, DMJUDGE et al. re: drum majors in street/L-pattern competitions (from a strict military style vs. content-packed/showmanship-filled routine), this has generated some good discussion! And I believe we have been fulfilling the purpose & intention of the forum...I always appreciate bouncing off thoughts & ideas off the professionals and gain some insight on what the "bad boys" are thinking HAHA :P

_________________
Once a drum major, always a drum major.


Last edited by MasterT on Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:59 pm 
Offline
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 am
Posts: 297
I think the problem here has to do with tradition. Now before we get into a big argument about that, lets try to forget arguments about tradition. (If you know anything about me or my history you would know how many traditions I did not follow as the DM of Arcadia)

L-pattern circuits especially in southern California have been set up to help drum majors prepare for the parade competitions. Parade competitions are based on a standard military practice of Pass and Review. Because of this the Drum Major's roles are specifically spelled out. This is not the case for Field Shows. I do not know all of the historical facts about the origins of the activity but there are not strict rules that must be followed (as defined by the United States Military.)

Music for an L-pattern is personal taste. I never spun to a march except for in front of Arcadia and El Roble IS. Did this make a difference in how I did in competition with Mike? Absolutely not! And it shouldn't have. When he beat me, he did so with superior skill and hard work.

Many of the drum majors mentioned here could have won performing to Sousa, Kenny G or Bach. Drum Majors are rewarded for the creativity in their routines, and most importantly in the execution of those routines. Whether the music helps you be creative is up to you. The music however, is not being judged just like in solo field conducting competitions. It is not about how cool the music is, it is how well you conduct the music you picked.

_________________
Brennan England
Gretchen A. Whitney High School, Director


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:32 pm 
Offline
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 8:48 pm
Posts: 119
Location: Sacramento
My experience with you Mr. England has primarily been from USA camps and the evals that you would do for us. I competed in the solo circuit, but the most I got was an inspection at USA North 2000 (when it still existed). And of course the forums here.

I don't know you that well so I don't know all the nooks and crannies of Arcadia tradition (be it in solo competition or on the street). I know that you, just like mikekimchi, come from a long line of excellent drum majors at your school with standards and traditions. Maybe one of these days if I go down to watch a comp you can detail some of those things you rebelled against :P I have seen a number of Arcadia performances on street and solo circuit so I do have some frame of reference.

What you say both about tradition and the motivation behind the "L" does make sense (surprisingly!) With that in mind, it grants me some understanding as to why you and Mike think similarly about musical selection. Though I still see music selection in L-patterns not given the recognition as it does in field conducting. That's only something that can be changed by yourself, co-operator of the Tom Peacock circuit. And if that's not a direction you want the scoring sheets to reflect, then it's your call.

Which brings me to an interesting remark...you say that you didn't march to marches in solo competition, yet why do you make such a strong push for it now? Do you think that music in solo circuit has an effect/bias on the judging?

Even a teenie bit?

(and for the sake of sanity I won't even go into the Northern/Southern California debate, though I have seen several excellent drum majors go down south and killed...myself included!)

I don't think that field conducting has been about who has the coolest music...or at least, it shouldn't be. Just because someone chooses to use an overused drum corps piece which is LOUD with the blaring sopranos, the rat-tat-tat of the snares and sick bass runs, compared to someone who uses a soft piece with multi-layering of instrumentation and expressing the mood and feeling of the piece...does that make them any better? I certainly hope not. But then again, as I said, I think that Southern California understanding of field conducting carries the "military" tradition of the L-pattern mentality over into field conducting when the judging can't be one-for-one with how it is done on the L. There's a great loss of understanding of the purpose and intent of the field conductor, and it appears that people are being rewarded for things that they are doing incorrectly. (And when those from Northern California come down and do their thing, they get obliterated for "performing")

Now before people get their panties all bunched up, I'm not saying that these field conductors don't know the fundamentals of beat pattern and clarity. They do. But what they lack is an understanding of the essence of their ROLE as a field conductor. This may be due to the fact that there is not that much instruction in that field in Southern California, or maybe it is because field conductors don't get constructive criticism during field shows. Maybe the field conductors in fieldshows are actually the band director! (such as Arcadia, Rancho Bernardo, Mt. Carmel, etc.)

So then the student field conductor has an even diminished perspective of their presence in front of a 100 yard performance venue and their leadership in this context.

Bottom line, it's never about the coolest music. But certainly something different that sets one apart from the rest (with good taste...certainly NOT "Tequila"...though I think I would be laughing with my buddies if I heard that being performed!) that displays good musicianship, coupled with a strong presence and performance, can make a world of a difference.

_________________
Once a drum major, always a drum major.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:25 pm 
Offline
New Recruit
New Recruit

Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:30 pm
Posts: 39
Location: IE/LA
Just got back from a second shift at work and skimmed the latest responses. I'm pretty tired and hope I didn't misread or misinterpret something I'm about to respond to, so please understand if I do.

When I commented that field conducting is "exactly that- conducting a piece of music," I didn't mean that it's SIMPLY conducting a piece of music. Believe me, I sucked at conducting and I have much respect for those with the gift I did not have! My band was not big on field and in my four years, only competed twice in my senior year. The point I was trying to make is that an L-Pattern in my eyes is not a literal interpretation of the music, rather the music is (again, in my eyes) simply a medium to perform a routine to. Yes, that is definitely up for debate (obviously), but that is my personal input with respect to my alma mater's and instructors' teachings that the routine construction and execution (with respect to style and tradition) is primary, and music selection falls somewhere behind that. As for colorguards, indeed they have come a long way, but I still hold strong that a drum major's street or L routine should not have to go with the music like a colorguard's routine would.

As for my last comment about hating film scores and the such as marching music, I stand firm. I have seen MANY great drum majors perform to what I personally would not consider marching music, and kick butt! That doesn't mean I loved the music. Just some examples of what I've heard twenty too many times...Darth Vader's march, the theme to Dynasty, and yes, overplayed marches (British Eighth again?! NOOOOOO!!!).

Much thanks for the kind words, MasterT. I am very proud of my alma mater, and I thank you for your recognition of our traditions!

Brennan...you make it sound like there's some gap between us. You know you kicked butt man. But I admit, I wish you used a march. HAHA! Sorry bro, but you know I was a total jerk in performance anyway. Much love, brother.

Oh man...so tired...I have a feeling I'll read this tomorrow night and not remember writing half of it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Music
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:09 pm 
Offline
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 am
Posts: 297
Mike,
Thank you for the kind words as well. As for the music issue at hand. Drum Majors in a parade setting are competing with their spinning. Therefore, their spinning is the only thing being judged (other than presentation.) The reason I am pushing for marches now, is that many students are great spinners but can not stay in step! This is ridiculous! The number one responsibility for a drum major in front of their band is to keep time. Currently, I am seeing a large amount of students who compete to music that is more complex than they can handle when marching. This could also be the same if they used a march like Action Front by Blakenburg that changes meters.

I used music that was not marches because at the time I competed almost all competitors used marches. Not using a march set me apart, the same way that using a march now would set you apart from other people.

The allegations of judges bias are completely uncalled for. For some reason many people like to think that the judges have nothing better to do than conspire against high school students. I can say for a fact that this is not the case in our circuit when it comes to music. There is no place on the sheet for music selection and there likely never be any either. What all drum major judges are interested in is quality spinning with good tempo and marching style. A quality routine will stand up with any music accompanying it.

As for the Nor Cal/So Cal issue, there is no preference. I like good and inventive spinners. My favorite spinner of the year? Danielle Battisti.

_________________
Brennan England
Gretchen A. Whitney High School, Director


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:10 am 
Offline
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 8:48 pm
Posts: 119
Location: Sacramento
mikekimchi wrote:
The point I was trying to make is that an L-Pattern in my eyes is not a literal interpretation of the music, rather the music is (again, in my eyes) simply a medium to perform a routine to. Yes, that is definitely up for debate (obviously), but that is my personal input with respect to my alma mater's and instructors' teachings that the routine construction and execution (with respect to style and tradition) is primary, and music selection falls somewhere behind that.


I'm glad that we both recognize that this is a point of difference, and not for the sake of antagonism. Seriously MOB has strict traditions and of course I realize why you think the way you do about it. But it's good that we see the debate, and that it is not necessarily an issue of "right vs. wrong".

mikekimchi wrote:
As for colorguards, indeed they have come a long way, but I still hold strong that a drum major's street or L routine should not have to go with the music like a colorguard's routine would.


DMJUDGE wrote:
As for the music issue at hand. Drum Majors in a parade setting are competing with their spinning. Therefore, their spinning is the only thing being judged (other than presentation.)


Both you guys bring up a good point. But is it necessarily appropriate to be doing big movements (i.e., roundhouse) in a soft section of the music? Or is that not even that important?

Realizing of course that it's not the main job of the DM to be the sole visual representation of the music, there's gotta be some logic as to the creative of construction and in a way, it's "matching" with the music, be it a march or not. And that is definitely part of the presentation, in terms of general effect. So whether one realized it or not there is a strong part of the presentation (routine analysis or something like that?) even though one may not be so overt about it.

DMJUDGE wrote:
The reason I am pushing for marches now, is that many students are great spinners but can not stay in step! This is ridiculous!


I couldn't agree with you more. But if the competitor can't stay in step, then maybe they shouldn't even be doing solo circuit in the first place (ha ha). Staying in step, however, appears to be a symptom of deeper issues so I'm unsure just how much influence using a march will have on them if the individual lacks pulse.

There ARE other possible symptoms to this epidemic. Like maybe the individual isn't practicing there M&M as much to their spinning. Or sound delay. See an example of that here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvKOltRdUek

mikekimchi wrote:
As for my last comment about hating film scores and the such as marching music, I stand firm. I have seen MANY great drum majors perform to what I personally would not consider marching music, and kick butt! That doesn't mean I loved the music. Just some examples of what I've heard twenty too many times...Darth Vader's march, the theme to Dynasty, and yes, overplayed marches (British Eighth again?! NOOOOOO!!!).


So it seems like your pet peeve is just the fact that DMs are not holding to traditions or your conviction about what music they should be using, right? Also...I've never heard of "Dynasty"...is that some sort of TV show intro? I might be a little too young for that...

DMJUDGE wrote:
The allegations of judges bias are completely uncalled for. For some reason many people like to think that the judges have nothing better to do than conspire against high school students. I can say for a fact that this is not the case in our circuit when it comes to music. There is no place on the sheet for music selection and there likely never be any either. What all drum major judges are interested in is quality spinning with good tempo and marching style. A quality routine will stand up with any music accompanying it.


Sigh. This sounds like the old classic WBA-NCBA-SCSBOA-MBOS marching band debate that Phantom Phan/Spring-Heeled Jack/Hostrauser has somehow gotten in the middle of for the last 7-8 years on WOP. I guess I inadvertently opened up a can of worms, though there was an honest intention to investigate how the previous (about music selection & more content-filled routines) affect the judging in different regional areas. There is no such thing as completely unbiased judging. Bias in its definition means that there is a certain tendency or disposition towards a certain direction. And that may be driven by our tastes (or traditions, as mikekimchi put it).

I mean I could go on questioning why Danielle, as fantastic of a spinner and performer that she is, didn't place at state (other than the obvious of not having the highest score). But you gotta wonder that when one judge puts a competitor in first place and the other at the bottom of the barrel...you can't help but wonder...REALLY...what the heck is going on. Like, "where then is the consistency?" or "what is THE standard of excellent performance?"

But then again, these are age-old judging questions. I guess just stick to the integrity of the activity and not be so consumed about the final numbers and little issues that can become ridiculously divisive.

And bottom line...HAVE FUN!!! :D

(BTW, that example is not reflexive of Danielle. It is just a real example that happened a few years ago in FC2 competition...and not like the judges comments helped shed light on his justification for last place!)

_________________
Once a drum major, always a drum major.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:58 pm 
Offline
New Recruit
New Recruit

Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:30 pm
Posts: 39
Location: IE/LA
Hmm...It almost seems like you're reading more into my posts than needed, MT. My opinions are simply that; my opinions. They're based on traditions, personal taste (drrr), and should not be taken as anything more or less than that. I stand firm behind them, and definitely don't expect anyone to agree (or disagree).

Dynasty was a drama, slightly before my day (so definitely before yours).

Tah dah!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:29 pm 
Offline
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 8:48 pm
Posts: 119
Location: Sacramento
Here's an example (though not completely limited to) of using spinning as a form of visually representing the music (and not purely using the music as a means of spinning):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMFs1zolkUg

Specifically, the following sections:
0:29-0:43
1:20-1:25
2:02-2:06
2:28-end

I know this is a slightly different venue than the traditional "pass-and-review" type of competition but such an even did exist to really show off the creative side of drum majors. Perhaps this was from the days when drum majors actually performed routines with the band on the field?

DMJUDGE (or maybe even Ryan H. Turner)...can you provide some education in this particular area?

Still a whole lot of fun to watch! An amazing performer and instructor he was. One of the last "originals" of the "Good Guys of Nor. Cal" :P

_________________
Once a drum major, always a drum major.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:11 pm 
Offline
New Recruit
New Recruit
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2002 12:00 pm
Posts: 40
During those days, Peacock had a show division for DMs. It was phased out during the mid 90s. There were not that many people ever doing it, plus with six spinning divisions and field conducting, it just extended the day longer then what it should have been. (In my opinion that is on the last part :) )


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
  http://www.worldofpageantry.com Copyright © 1996 - 2006 Email:  admin@worldofpageantry.com  

Site design and maintenance by Dave Schaafsma at Dave's Web Dynamics