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Are you voting?
Poll ended at Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:07 am
Yes 70%  70%  [ 26 ]
No 16%  16%  [ 6 ]
Under 18 13%  13%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 37
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 Post subject: Re: Big Ol' Can of Worms (aka California Propositions)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:40 pm 
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hahaha

Nreuest wrote:
fieldshowqueen turns into a dragon

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 Post subject: Re: Big Ol' Can of Worms (aka California Propositions)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:03 pm 
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fieldshowqueen wrote:
Nreuest wrote:
fieldshowqueen wrote:
I don't care if you are a member of the Church of Nreuest and bathe in raspberry-chocolate sauce at the full moon.

Actually we sunbathe in strawberry jelly during summer at the beach. You're welcome to join us! By the way, nice avatar.... :wink:

Oh! I'm soooo sorry but I really dislike strawberries. Thanks anyway.
And the avatar was changed just for you don't you know (based on the 5-words thread). :)


8-)

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 Post subject: Prop 8
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:31 pm 
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I've been avoiding this topic but I'll chime in - I've seen friends divided over this, and honestly ... seriously... really.. I think we got bigger issues in the country than to worry about weather we're gonna "okay same sex marriages" IMO let them have it - why does it have to be such a big issue? Let them go through the same heart aches some go through when their marriages do not work out...

But really now - I have a challenge for anyone who's going to vote yes on Prop 8.

Tell me why I should vote Yes with out referencing ANY form of religion - do not mention the church - do not mention the bible.


Wasn't to long ago when the same "religious groups" were against interracial marriages, and integrating schools. (if someone already brought this point up I"m sorry for repeating it)


anyways thats my view.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Ol' Can of Worms (aka California Propositions)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:13 pm 
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NO ON 8!!!!!!! :soap: Don't get me started!!


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 Post subject: Re: Big Ol' Can of Worms (aka California Propositions)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:32 pm 
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I find it funny that the name-calling about Prop 8 comes predominantly from one side of the argument. Religious nuts or not (and I've read my share of arguments on both sides, thanks), proponents ARE allowed to define their direction on this using THEIR morals. It may not make sense to you but it makes sense to them, and to call them names only furthers their heels into the ground because, well (sorry Wendy), the Bible tells them this is going to happen.

I've been so on the fence on 8 to be honest. I have a huge amount of friends that are gay. I have read both the logical AND emotional arguments against 8. But I've read also the sheer terror on the proponents of 8's argument as well. A slippery slope is what they 8 is--today, gay marriage is ok, tomorrow, you can't teach gay marriage is wrong in church because it's "against the law". Maybe a leap of logic to go there, but remember, they're guided by scripture and prophecy which doesn't mean a hill of beans to you if you don't believe it. It's a powerful argument.

I don't have time to read a 30,000 word essay right now--but on the surface, another reason why the proponents of 8 feel "cornered" is because the will of the people was overturned. Again...whether right or not, it happened, and that scares the crap out of the proponents.

So...there you go.

I'll make my decision on Tuesday.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Ol' Can of Worms (aka California Propositions)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:08 pm 
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malletphreak wrote:
Tell me why I should vote Yes with out referencing ANY form of religion - do not mention the church - do not mention the bible.

Gee Wendy, you take all the fun out of campaigning :P . Seriously though, I've been trying to stay away from the "legislating morals" argument because I know that's not the way America is designed. My main argument is for protecting my rights. I don't want to be legally required to sacrifice my rights for same-sex families. This could theoretically happen in any of the following ways (or more): having to let them adopt one of my children; having to solemnize a marriage for them; having to perform in vitro fertilization;

malletphreak wrote:
Wasn't to long ago when the same "religious groups" were against interracial marriages, and integrating schools. (if someone already brought this point up I"m sorry for repeating it)

Here you start by asking for no Bible, and then mention it in your argument. That's hardly fair. I'll briefly touch on this one anyways. When "religious groups" (I don't think they were particularly religious either) tried to use the Bible to support segregation, slavery, and to stop interracial marriage, they were willfully misreading the Bible. They took stuff out of context; they relied on weak interpretations; they ignored half the relevant laws; With same-sex marriage, it's hard to mess up: "You shall not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, it is an abomination" (Leviticus 18:11).

Ryan H. Turner wrote:
I find it funny that the name-calling about Prop 8 comes predominantly from one side of the argument.

I didn't even think about this until you mentioned it. I guess you get used to being called a "religious nut" after awhile and write it off as a matter of course.

Ryan H. Turner wrote:
proponents ARE allowed to define their direction on this using THEIR morals

THANK YOU! Seriously, even if you think I'm a depraved lunatic for believing in G-d and all, I'm glad you recognize my right to do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Ol' Can of Worms (aka California Propositions)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:58 am 
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Quote:
Here you start by asking for no Bible, and then mention it in your argument. That's hardly fair. I'll briefly touch on this one anyways. When "religious groups" (I don't think they were particularly religious either) tried to use the Bible to support segregation, slavery, and to stop interracial marriage, they were willfully misreading the Bible. They took stuff out of context; they relied on weak interpretations; they ignored half the relevant laws; With same-sex marriage, it's hard to mess up: "You shall not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, it is an abomination" (Leviticus 18:11).


ok...here i go, and hate it all you want, but its my opinion and thats one legal right i have that you have too!
you say they relied on weak interpretations, and that when it comes to same sex marriage its hard to mess up....well, correct me if i am wrong but did god(or whoever you believe in)himself write those words???? NO!! that is that mans "interpretation" of what he thought god was telling him!

im so over people using religion as a weapon and quoting the bible every chance they get when something doesnt go the way they like. im pretty sure thats not what that book is intended for. to me the bible is about tolerance, loving one another and being excepting of everyone and everything.


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 Post subject: Re: Big Ol' Can of Worms (aka California Propositions)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:47 am 
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You know the many translations of the bible to it's current form today leave a lot to be desired. A lot of it can be misinterpreted just due to so many opportunities for change. So unless you can read Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, it's hard to understand the exact context. This doesn't really have anything to do with prop. 9, just a side note. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible#Bibl ... anslations for more info.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Ol' Can of Worms (aka California Propositions)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:14 am 
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Holy Moly... haha! get it?

the bible should have nothing to do with it because of that whole "separation of church and state" thing going for us.

You can be as religious as you want to be. You also have the freedom to pray to God, Budda, Allah, the flying spaghetti monster or a spongebob bobble head if you want. but you don't have the right to impose those beliefs onto me.

Equality under the law... not the religion.

The last time I checked, being gay was not a crime, therefor they should have the same rights we do... including marriage.


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 Post subject: Re: Big Ol' Can of Worms (aka California Propositions)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:11 am 
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totherescue wrote:
well, correct me if i am wrong but did god(or whoever you believe in)himself write those words???? NO!!

Vzos hatorah asher sam Moshe lifnei bnei Yisrael, al pi Hashem, vyad Moshe. Translation: This is the Torah (Bible) that Moses placed before the Children of Israel, the word of G-d by the hand of Moses (ie G-d spoke it, Moses wrote it) (Deuteronomy 4:44, Numbers 9:23).

The Aceman wrote:
You know the many translations of the bible to it's current form today leave a lot to be desired. A lot of it can be misinterpreted just due to so many opportunities for change. So unless you can read Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, it's hard to understand the exact context.

Well then I guess it's uber convenient that I can read Hebrew. FYI, Aramaic wouldn't help (no version of the Bible is written in Aramaic), and Greek was the first translation of the Bible (translated on order of Ptolemy II c. 285 BCE), NOT an original source. Just in case you're wondering if I took this out of context, I'll try to give an approximately interlinear translation:

V'es zachar lo sishcav mishk'vei isha to'eivah hiv
V'es, and with (by itself could mean any number of prepositions, context of the next word makes it "and with"), zachar, a man (interesting note: the Bible usually uses the word ish, lit. man or leader, or the word gever, lit. man or warrior, to refer to a man. The word zachar used here refers to not only a man, but to his sexual organs), lo you shall not (lit. means "no" by itself. means you shall not because of the context), sishcav, lie (also lie down, sleep), mishk'vei, in the way that you lie with, isha woman (second note: the word isha is related to the word ish, NOT zachar. Using the two words together emphasizes that the lying with a man is a sexual (eg of the sexual organ, zachar) urge only), to'eivah, an abomination (also outrage), hiv it is.

laurab wrote:
but you don't have the right to impose those beliefs onto me.

That's the exact argument I've been making all along. Although I personally think homosexuality is morally reprehensible, I support on the level of rights. Why? Because by protecting their rights I protect my own in the long run; that's the way America works. That doesn't mean, however, that I support homosexual rights over my own (that would kind of defeat the purpose). In this case, AS I HAVE REPEATEDLY STATED, I feel like Prop 8 protects my rights to live religiously. I'll remind you that I didn't mention the Bible a single time until Wendy brought it up.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Ol' Can of Worms (aka California Propositions)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:36 am 
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i'm just thinking, just because some people may have a set of beliefs doesn't mean that they have to force their belifes onto other people. with morals, it's the same thing. i mean, look at areas with legalized gambling, i'm really sure that a sizeable part of their population is against gambling. it comes down to, "do what is right, not what everyone else is doing." there really is little valid arguement in favor of prop 8, and in my opinion, which some may not share, it is propelled by "religious nuts" and ultra-conservatives reluctant to change. time moves forward; society must evolve with time. prop 8 is a major civil rights issue, and if passed, it'll have been a step backwards.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Ol' Can of Worms (aka California Propositions)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:09 am 
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mkosbie wrote:
The Aceman wrote:
You know the many translations of the bible to it's current form today leave a lot to be desired. A lot of it can be misinterpreted just due to so many opportunities for change. So unless you can read Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, it's hard to understand the exact context.

Well then I guess it's uber convenient that I can read Hebrew.


Hahaha, touché.

mkosbie wrote:
FYI, Aramaic wouldn't help (no version of the Bible is written in Aramaic),


The Tanakh was mainly written in Biblical Hebrew, with some portions (notably in Daniel and Ezra) in Biblical Aramaic.

See: http://www.csbbc.net/bible.html

mkosbie wrote:
and Greek was the first translation of the Bible (translated on order of Ptolemy II c. 285 BCE), NOT an original source.


Here I was referring to the New Testament which was likely written in Koine Greek.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Ol' Can of Worms (aka California Propositions)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:50 pm 
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you can live religiously regardless of the outcome on Prop 8. It is about the EQUAL RIGHT TO MARRY! Gay marriage does not diminish your rights, PERIOD.

I am a married, to a man. Are you saying that if prop 8 loses and gay marriage continues to be allowed that MY marriage is less important or valid?

That my step brother, who is one of the most compassionate, caring, thoughtful and kind people I know should not be able to be married but serial killers may do so, as long as it is to a woman?


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 Post subject: Re: Big Ol' Can of Worms (aka California Propositions)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:50 pm 
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AMEN LAURA!!!!!

PREACH IT!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Big Ol' Can of Worms (aka California Propositions)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:53 pm 
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Hey Wendy, I just tracked down an interesting totally secular argument against same-sex marriage (published by MIT's newspaper): http://tech.mit.edu/V124/N5/kolasinski.5c.html

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