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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:54 pm 
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seanrj wrote:
I just don't know why we have to keep beating a dead horse...
The "they lied! they lied! they lied! they lied!" thing is getting old...

Because it's really annoying to listen to politicians speak of things with such certainty, who are then unable to take RESPONSIBILITY for the outcomes. What continually irks me is that they cannot EVER admit a mistake about anything. Spin, spin, spin.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:46 pm 
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fieldshowqueen wrote:
War has ALWAYS been a way to pull the world, not just the United States, out of a recession or depression, and, yes, it it very, very profitable.


War NORMALLY helps the economy. This war has only made it worse, one big reason is that the Iraq war is being fought FOR big business. The Vietnam war on the other hand was fought for an ideal that the majority of Americans (at least in the beginning) believed in. With so many people distrusting the government and so many people angry with the current foreign policy they are holding onto their money tighter than ever before. And anyone who thinks this "Economic Stimulus Plan" will work is crazy too. But wait we are in war Mr. Bush, why do we need an Economic Stimulus Plan. Because war didn't work. Funny, when Clinton was in office the Economy was booming, oh well.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:35 am 
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Seriously, are people really trying to compare us getting out of the recession many years ago to now?? Have you not driven your car lately or noticed how much freakin' money it costs to buy some eggs or a gallon of milk? This war has not, and will not bring us out of our failing economy. This was, and this President has nothing but hurt America and make us look like fools.

As far as the stimulus package. It won't work at all. In this uncertain time people are going to save that money, or they will be forced to use it to pay for their increasing gas bills. Or maybe better yet they will have to use it to hold on to their house for one more month because they can barely afford their mortgage. I know when I get mine it's going right into the bank. I'm not going to run out and just spend it on something so we can "help" the economy. What a joke....


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:00 am 
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The Aceman wrote:
fieldshowqueen wrote:
War has ALWAYS been a way to pull the world, not just the United States, out of a recession or depression, and, yes, it it very, very profitable.


War NORMALLY helps the economy. This war has only made it worse, one big reason is that the Iraq war is being fought FOR big business. The Vietnam war on the other hand was fought for an ideal that the majority of Americans (at least in the beginning) believed in. With so many people distrusting the government and so many people angry with the current foreign policy they are holding onto their money tighter than ever before. And anyone who thinks this "Economic Stimulus Plan" will work is crazy too. But wait we are in war Mr. Bush, why do we need an Economic Stimulus Plan. Because war didn't work. Funny, when Clinton was in office the Economy was booming, oh well.


Sorry ... my rolly eyes didn't post. My comment was made sarcastically. The thought process that war is good for the economy is known as "The Broken Window Fallacy". This erroneous thought process states basically that if no windows were ever broken then the glass shop down the street would go out of business. So ... the kid with a brick who just broke thousands of windows should be considered a hero because he kept the glass shops in business! This of course funnels money that would have been spent on other things into repairing glass which wasn't broken without the aid of a morals-deficient vandal. Any of this sound somewhat unsettlingly familiar?

Wars are typically funded in 3 ways ... raise taxes, decrease spending in other areas (can you say "Education Budget Cuts"?), and increasing the debt. Like the replacement glass, the money could have been spent on other things.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:04 am 
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The stimulus package will do more for the Chinese economy than ours. I will be funded by them (loans to the US) and if people really do go out and spend it; most of it will go back to the Chinese in the way of purchased exports.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:20 am 
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Mark Stone wrote:
The stimulus package will do more for the Chinese economy than ours. I will be funded by them (loans to the US) and if people really do go out and spend it; most of it will go back to the Chinese in the way of purchased exports.


Hahaha, so funny, but oh so true, haha!! This is one of my favorite posts this year!!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:16 pm 
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Hostrauser wrote:
thunderdrmz wrote:
So I'm guessing it was about the oil, as far as your perspectives?

No.


thunderdrmz wrote:
Or the benefits for the stock holders of weapons manufacturers.

HALLIBURTON/KBR Defense Contracts
Five "Pre-War" Years (1998-2002)
1998: $316 million
1999: $676 million
2000: $612 million
2001: $452 million
2002: $491 million
TOTAL: $2.547 billion

Four "War" Years (2003-2006)
2003: $3.115 billion
2004: $8.000 billion
2005: $5.956 billion
2006: $5.972 billion
TOTAL: $23.043 BILLION

If that's not the very definition of war-time profiteering, I'm not sure what is.

But let's not just pick on Cheney's vested interest. Let's take a look at the Big Three: Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and Northrop-Grummann. Pay special attention to how quickly the funding ramps up once Bush is in office.

LOCKHEED/BOEING/NORTHROP Defense Contracts
Five "Pre-War" Years (1998-2002)
1998: $27.475 billion
1999: $28.104 billion
2000: $33.799 billion
2001: $39.847 billion
2002: $42.243 billion
TOTAL: $171.468 billion

Okay, ready? Brace yourself.

Four "War" Years (2003-2006)
2003: $48.742 billion
2004: $51.834 billion
2005: $52.648 billion
2006: $64.952 billion
TOTAL: $218.176 BILLION

And yes, we're spending more and more annually on this war with every passing year, not less.

I'm not saying this was the sole motivation for war in Iraq, of course. But war has always been big business. WWII pretty much single-handedly yanked the US out of the Great Depression. Don't think $$$ weren't a factor.

thunderdrmz wrote:
Sheer blood lust? Absolutely nothing to do with an entire hate generating segment of this earth that wants to kill you, your mother, and your neighbor. Oh yeah, this segment of which I speak of was killing everyone who didn't agree with them far before any Bush came into power.

Are you talking about Muslim fundamentalists or the Catholic church? Your last sentence really muddled things up.

Expand your thinking. Please mention one single year in the course of human history when there wasn't "an entire hate generating segment of this earth" wanting to kill another segment. And why do you think shooting up their cities and blowing up their children will somehow convince them to stop hating us?

One enemy at a time. Regardless of their sponsorship or lack-thereof of terrorist organizations, Iran and Iraq were not responsible for 9/11. Pursuing al-Qaeda to attempt to bring the perpetrators of 9/11 to justice is understandable. It's the "Global War on Terror" that I find to be such a joke.

You cannot fight ideologies with violence. IT DOES NOT WORK. It didn't work for the Romans versus the Christians, it didn't work for the Christians versus the Muslims or the Muslims versus the Christians, it didn't work for the Americans versus the Communists. IT DOES NOT WORK. But no one ever learns, so we continue our typical response: hit anyone whose ideology WE disagree with (the same fault you ascribe to the terrorists can easily be applied to US foreign policy) like a four-year-old child.

You can repeat tired, old, gung-ho cliches like "the time for talk is over!" all you want; it doesn't make them any truer.


How about some numbers and stats for Desert Storm I in '90, the one that daddy Bush started. I'm curious to see how Haliburton fared in that one----probably made out like bandits.

"The organizing principle of any society is for war. The authority of the state over its people resides in its war powers."---from JFK

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:22 pm 
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thunderdrmz wrote:
So I'm guessing it was about the oil, as far as your perspectives? Or the benefits for the stock holders of weapons manufacturers. Sheer blood lust? Absolutely nothing to do with an entire hate generating segment of this earth that wants to kill you, your mother, and your neighbor. Oh yeah, this segment of which I speak of was killing everyone who didn't agree with them far before any Bush came into power.

Expand your thinking. This is absolutely bigger than one Texan who happened to come into power.


It's always about the oil. As long as the western world suckles on the teat of the world's oil reserves, we will continue this downward spiral. The fact that Muslim extremists hate us is icing on the cake and yet another reason to hate the west. Unfortunate, the extremists offer no alternative to the evil life we lead, but their religion which promises 70+ virgins upon death. No thanks. Better to be a godless heathen.....

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:31 pm 
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seanrj wrote:
If you are going to slam W, then slam Slick Willy Clinton. His administration had the same Iraq policy that the Bush administration does. Only difference is that BJ Clinton did not actually DO anything except bomb some aspirin producing facilities. That, and interns.

Also, being attached to terrorist organizations "other" that AQ? Like there is a difference? They are all terrorists, just different brand names, and all producing the same thing... They all need to be dealt with. Them and any entity that is going to support them.

But, just sit back and lob insults and vitriolic statements at the Republicans... Those darn evil Republicans. That horrible, horrible W...

blah blah blah


Tell us how you really feel and don't hold back......LOL.
Unfortunately, Bubba couldn't correct all the bullsh*t from the previous Bush I Dynasty. But please continue to bring up the blow jobs that had nothing to do with the governing of our nation. The rest of the world laughs at us for being so prudish about sex. Clinton wasn't the only president that had an indiscretion, I can remember quite a few Republican presidents who had some scandals worse than a blow job.......

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:05 pm 
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What he did had plenty to do with his governing our nation. Despite the fact that what he did was reprehensible (imagine using your position of authority, power and respect to take advantage of someone that looks up to you...get the picture?) but it's what he did to cover it up. Remember that the day he launched cruise missiles was the day before his court date to answer for his indiscretions with Monica...

And to all of you reading this debate; this is a healthy discussion of political views. It has nothing to do with my program or my students.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:25 am 
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Mark Stone wrote:
What he did had plenty to do with his governing our nation. Despite the fact that what he did was reprehensible (imagine using your position of authority, power and respect to take advantage of someone that looks up to you...get the picture?) but it's what he did to cover it up. Remember that the day he launched cruise missiles was the day before his court date to answer for his indiscretions with Monica...

And to all of you reading this debate; this is a healthy discussion of political views. It has nothing to do with my program or my students.


Please, hold the drama :roll:
As if our president with malice and forethought, would launch missiles in an attempt to avoid going to a hearing.
And actually it has everything to do with today's students, who, hopefully will learn from our generation's missteps and fix what's broken.

In another era, it would've been swept under the rug and forgotten. But we now live in an age of sensationalism, papparazzi and full disclosure where everything is laid bare.

For all those folks who think Bubba was evil, I sincerely ask this: Are you doing better now under Bush than under Clinton? And what words of wisdom do you have for all those teachers holding pink slips due to budget cuts?

As a registered republican, I am disappointed in my party in trying to gain control of the national budget. The republicans managed to blow [pun intended] a surplus and put us back in debt and in a war that is out of control. And my biggest fears are for my grandchildren, whose generation will pay for our transgressions. To my fellow republicans, please let go of the blowjobs of the past and focus on our budget and economy.....

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:43 am 
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This must be what Mark Stone's programs and students believe as well! :shock: :twisted:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:48 pm 
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The Aceman wrote:
Funny, when Clinton was in office the Economy was booming, oh well.


I'm not sure what your implication is with this one. Our major economic problem is due to greed of the comsumers and mortgage industry thinking that buying a house will make you fabulouly wealthy with a 500% increase in value over the next 6 months. When that bubble burst (we are in the splatter right now) consumers had to pay the piper, which they couldn't whick in turn has a huge hit on the lending market and the spiral begins. This is hardly a partisan issue.

I also disagree in that, at least at first, a good percentage of the US population were in favor of "getting the terrorists". Well, we have a better understanding of realities and not many people can convincingly make an arguement for the strategy used in this conflict but, as you mentioed regarding Viet Nam, in the beginning it made more sence.

Very few people are in favor of armed conflict to resolve issues. There are those who believe talking is the way to go so can all just understand each other. I am not one of those people. We have had egg on our face far too often in trying to resolve issue through negotiations only to have these "pacts" broken when they no longer benefit the other guy.

Maybe I need to sing Kumbayaa or wear less tight underwear. I don't know. Maybe I'm right about people

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:49 pm 
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It's so difficult for me to try and talk about this subject. But I wear a tinfoil hat sometimes, and this whole Al Queda/Saddam/9-11/Afghanistan thing has much deeper and darker machinations to it that it would probably take forever to try and explain it.

But to simply say it's "for the oil" or just for "profiteering" is like shooting at a target, and hitting all around the bullseye. Close...you get some points for it...but it ain't the bulleye.


And yes...the future of the way we go about life in this country is very much having the potential to get turned on its ear, and I speak mostly from an economic standpoint.

I think we're being (this country) destroyed in a war right now--and not a shot is being fired by our enemies.

I'll leave it at that.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:13 pm 
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Too deep Ryan, I'm not smart enough except to have a multitude of possibilities regaring what you are refering to.

Elaborate, oh sage of the amplifying talk stick :soap:

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