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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:39 am 
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The Aceman wrote:
I'd have to say I'm being realistic, not naive. We aren't living in an idealogical society, and we never will.

So...that's it? The medical system is screwed up but there's really nothing we can do? I'm curious what solution you would propose. Costs are spiraling out of control. My work offers a good medical program, but I still have to pay $300/month and it increases every year. My co-pays go up every year. Drugs are insanely expensive; I also had the lovely experience recently of paying a $25 co-pay for a 5ml dropper of eye drops for my kids' eye infections. In a just society, wouldn't that much fluid cost way less than that?

I'm for trying universal healthcare, if for no other reason than I feel like the system we have now is going to come crashing down sooner or later anyway.

I was young and healthy and didn't care much once, but now I have a family to worry about.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:24 am 
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Chapagne wrote:
The Aceman wrote:
I'd have to say I'm being realistic, not naive. We aren't living in an idealogical society, and we never will.

So...that's it? The medical system is screwed up but there's really nothing we can do? I'm curious what solution you would propose. Costs are spiraling out of control. My work offers a good medical program, but I still have to pay $300/month and it increases every year. My co-pays go up every year. Drugs are insanely expensive; I also had the lovely experience recently of paying a $25 co-pay for a 5ml dropper of eye drops for my kids' eye infections. In a just society, wouldn't that much fluid cost way less than that?

I'm for trying universal healthcare, if for no other reason than I feel like the system we have now is going to come crashing down sooner or later anyway.

I was young and healthy and didn't care much once, but now I have a family to worry about.


I didn't say we have a perfect system now. I'm saying Universal Healthcare is not the answer. We don't need total socialized medicine, because it doesn't work, just look at all the examples of it not working in other countries. Right now we have a mixed system where there is government involvement by the bureaucrats, at the same time we have corporate involvement. This system was largely built by legislation introduced in the 70's and it created a market for prices to raise. Because we have corporations, that have to meet federal mandates which cost them more money. So we already see the current system has failed, esp. with today's healthcare costs. Profits are going to HMO's, PPO's, Hospitals, Drug Companies, etc. It's undermining the doctor/patient relationship and causing doctors to drop out of medicare and medicaid, and anything else that causes too much government involvement. So now doctors AND patients are unhappy, while the big corporations fill their wallets and are exceedingly happy. What we need is tax credits for medical accounts, that way it gives people the freedom to choose, and if they don't spend the money for medical purposes, they get to keep that money, which gives them incentive not to spend money on frivolous healthcare costs, such as emergency room visits for a headache. It would also allow the patients to choose ANY doctor and type of medicine they want. This way only people providing quality medical care will make good money based of a good reputation, which doesn't compromise the quality of healthcare, like a universal plan would. And we don't need to just git rid of our current system, just phase it out to a new system over a period of time. In the meanwhile we can tide people over by bringing all the money we are spending overseas back to America, stop the financial bleeding and get our economy back on track. Right now the government is starting to cut back on medical benefits to try and save money anywhere they can. Which is another problem Universal Healthcare would have, the government giveth, and the government can taketh away. I don't want the government having that control over my personal healthcare.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:17 am 
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Hostrauser wrote:
I think our founding fathers would be floored that 90% of the nation's wealth was in the control of 1% of the population.
They might also be floored by 10% of the population paying 60% of the taxes. And there are plenty of liberal ideals that use the founding father's vision of "freedom" to justify their argument.

Anyway, I'm still curious how giving over more control of the health care industry to the government would solve it's problems, like the higher cost of doing business thanks to things like high malpractice insurance costs and the restraint of trade practices by other countires which force our pharmecutical firms (and us) to pay for the world's drug R&D, plus the fact that cities have just exploded with population in the last 20 years, straining the system in the first place.

I seriously doubt that the Feds would change their stripes and run a quick and efficient operation were they put in charge of health care.


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 Post subject: Have we not learned?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:11 am 
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Have we not learned how inefficiently our government uses our hard-earned tax dollars? Do you think they can make better use of YOUR money than you can?

I am all against creating any more bureacracy. Our government is big enough as it is. I don't want any more hands from the government dictating what I must do.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:44 am 
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The rich are only rich because of the sweat of the poor? Please. I'm sure personal hard work and initiative have nothing to do with success. It's all just the man keeping us poor slobs down :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:11 pm 
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Nope

Universal health care is flawed. You have to ask: where would you get the money to pay for procedures as well as employees, what should be prioritized medically, who should be saved in certain circumstances and etc. If we lived in a perfect world it could happen, but guess what???

Besides, how can we have universal care if we aren't unified?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:07 pm 
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Ok, so if people want universal healthcare, then I think it would only be fair if we had a flat tax (everyones pays the same tax rate). If you are going to propose such a thing as universal healthcare, you have to reform the tax system all together.

I'm still totally against universal healthcare program. I am all for making it more affordable for people to have higher quality, private healthcare.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:56 pm 
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crfrey71 wrote:
Ok, so if people want universal healthcare, then I think it would only be fair if we had a flat tax (everyones pays the same tax rate). If you are going to propose such a thing as universal healthcare, you have to reform the tax system all together.


Did someone say flat tax? Why have I always loved this idea when there must be some obvious flaw in the theory? Am I on my own little island wih this one?

Universal health care works in theory. But then again so does socialism, Marxism, and communism. In reality though, history has proven their inability to survive.

I believe in capitalism. I also like the idea of everyone helping everyone. Unfortunately a few of the 7 deadly always seem to creep in and screw things up

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:24 pm 
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thunderdrmz wrote:
Did someone say flat tax? Why have I always loved this idea when there must be some obvious flaw in the theory? Am I on my own little island wih this one?

Being the resident Economics Major here, I can answer this ...
The current progressive income tax rate is 0-35%. To bring in enough income to cover today's collection, the "flat tax" rate would have to be between 20 and 27% (depending on who you ask). Just for sake of ease, lets say 25%. The amount of "5% across the board" (including both personal and corporations) has been thrown out and about several times, but this would in reality result in less collected. (I actually have the numbers to prove this somewhere.)

Back to the current progressive vs. flat tax rate ... high income earners LOVE the flat tax idea because their tax rate would fall from 35% to 20ish%. Lower income earners (say a single mom with 2 children getting EIC) pay little to no income tax up to a minimum amount. Their tax rate would increase from virtually nothing to 20ish%. So a flat tax in effect hits harder on the poor. The middle class would see little to no difference.

If you see that as a "flaw" in the theory, then yeah ... it sucks. If you make over $150,000 a year, then you'd probably think it were the next best thing to sliced bread.

Tune in later for a zzzzzzzz discussion on the "Income Tax versus Consumption Tax" (which also has some serious issues). LOL.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:20 pm 
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wind-drummer wrote:
Universal health care is flawed. You have to ask: where would you get the money to pay for procedures as well as employees, what should be prioritized medically, who should be saved in certain circumstances and etc.

I fail to see how that is different from the control my insurance company currently wields over my care. Our daughter kept breaking out in unexplained rashes, so her pediatrician thought it might be a good idea to test her for allergies. Blue Cross didn't agree, sent us one of those famous letters signed by a "real" doctor, and tried to stick us with the bill. We fought and won, but more and more, you have to call your insurance company to make sure their pencil pushers approve of the cost of your care.

fieldshowqueen wrote:
income earners LOVE the flat tax idea

If this was true, wouldn't we have it? They're the ones running the government. I'm under the impression that they don't want it, because they would lose all their deductions that keep them from paying much of anything.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:35 pm 
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Chapagne wrote:
fieldshowqueen wrote:
income earners LOVE the flat tax idea

If this was true, wouldn't we have it? They're the ones running the government. I'm under the impression that they don't want it, because they would lose all their deductions that keep them from paying much of anything.

I didn't say a "flat tax with no loopholes". When you start killing the loopholes, support for anything from the wealthy side disappears.

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 Post subject: Consumption tax does not work
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:19 am 
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thunderdrmz wrote:
Tune in later for a zzzzzzzz discussion on the "Income Tax versus Consumption Tax" (which also has some serious issues). LOL.


Having spent time overseas, stationed (homeported) in Japan for 5 years, I can tell you that the consumption tax idea is very flawed. I remember when they increased the tax by 5% (in the late 90's). Everything went up. Beer, food, soda, everything...To me, a consumption tax is an inflation tax.

Japan has been in an economic tailspin since 1990. Remember when they were the model of how an economy should be run? So not true. Japan now should be a model to our tax system of what not to do. The LDP (Liberal Democratic party) is the ruling party there and they, like our liberals do, believe highly in higher taxes.

If you thought our cost of living was high, you should spend some time in Japan. Living in Japan turned out to be a blessing for me, because when things here stateside started inflating, I was already use to it, being in Japan.

Let me give you a few examples (year 2000 prices, roughly) 100 Yen is almost 1 dollar:

1.5 liter of soda costs 330 Yen
Draft beer ran 600 yen
1 mango costs 1,000 yen (yes, $10 for a single mango)
12 oz soda costs 120 yen

What Japan should be a model of is their public transportation. Train ticket from Yokosuka to Yokohama (30 minute ride) runs 330 yen. To the heart of Tokyo (1 hr 15 minutes) runs around 900yen.

Anyways...back to the consumption tax. I do not care for that at all. I will take our tax system over that. Also, if you think our tax system is bad, some of the European countries have extremely high tax systems.

To quote Winston Churchill:

"There is no such thing as a good tax."

and the one many of us have heard before:

“We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle”

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:36 am 
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Here is a very fitting quote from Winston Churchill about Socialism, since Universal healthcare is a concept of socialism.

" Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. "

and another about private enterprise:

" Some people regard private enterprise as a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look on it as a cow they can milk. Not enough people see it as a healthy horse, pulling a sturdy wagon. "

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:07 am 
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Any capitalistic Health Care System that puts dollars over lives is both inhumane but doomed to failure. You will never convince me otherwise.

CNN: Man dying of treatable cancer
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The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:38 am 
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The fact is the capitalistic health care system provides the capital for medical research. It costs millions of dollars and several years to bring that next miracle drug to market, or the next medical technology to the hospital.

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