Universal Healthcare
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:44 pm
Yes or No?
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Jeez, why should the white folk be paying for all the sickle-cell anemia treatments they'll never need? Why should all of us safe drivers be paying for the surgery and rehab of a kid who was street-racing and wrecked at 110 mph? Why should I have to pay for all those victims of a school shooting? I'm pro-gun control; if my views were enforced this wouldn't have happened.The Aceman wrote:And what about people who go out of their way to take care of their body and rarely need medical care, why should they being paying the same for medical care as a lazy couch potato with an abundance of healthcare problems?
No, but I know a few strawmen when I see 'em...Hostrauser wrote:Are you spotting the logical hole big enough to drive a truck through in your argument?
It also amazes me how black-and-white some people see the world, and how some people see the rich and successful as Everyman's ATM, concept which would have floored our founding fathers...It amazes me how easy it is for most people to justify to themselves cruelty just for the sake of their pocketbook.
Again I say Baloney. For one, capitalism has just as many flaws as any other economic policy (that's another topic altogether). For two, there has been a rich person ever made that hasn't done it on the backs of the poor. No matter what field of industry you're in, it doesn't run with out the poorly-paid grunt labor.FluteOfTheNewWorld wrote:Universal Healthcare isn't what capitalism is about... you are supposed to make your own wealth and support yourself. The rich shouldn't have to support the poor.
Been to an emergency room in SoCal recently? That happens here ALL the time. I had to wait several hours with my wife when she was getting her ankle cast off, because the free clinic was "first come, first serve" and did not take appointments.The Aceman wrote:Hah, did your friends mention having to wait 4 hours or MORE at the emergency room.
You think that doesn't happen here? Seriously, when was the last time you saw a specialist? It took me a month to see an eye specialist to figure out why I'm getting all these styes.The Aceman wrote:Or how about waiting over a month to see a specialist.
Dunno about you, but I've been to emergency rooms in San Diego where the wait has been SIX hours unless you were bleeding from the eyes (we left and went to a private clinic where the wait was less than two hours).The Aceman wrote:Dunno about you, but if I go to the emergency room, I want to be seen before 4 hours.
No, you're wrong.The Aceman wrote:Universal Healthcare is representative of a totalitarian government, it doesn't work for the same reason totalitarianism doesn't work.
Pff. I think you're terribly naive. I don't care if you have FIFTY rifles RIGHT NOW, do you think you can still out-firepower the military? If society ever degenerates to the point where the government is knocking on your door to pry the guns out of your cold, dead hands, trust me, they'll be knocking with tanks and rocket launchers, not MPs with sidearms.The Aceman wrote:Not only that, do you think the military would disarm as well? No, that puts the government and military in more control than I'm willing to pass over.
Your confusing the source of the problem. This is not indicative of a poor health care system, this is indicative of the overwhelming rural and remote nature of Canadian life. All of the big cities with specialists are close to the U.S. border. I can only assume your friend does not live in Vancouver, Calgary, or Toronto? These numbers might be a little off, but I believe Canada has something like 12-15 cities over 300,000 in population spread out over 3.85 million square miles; California has 12 cities over 300,000 in population spread out over 163 thousand square miles.fieldshowqueen wrote:I've posted about this before ... Canadian health care is NOT the bee's knees. A friend has to drive 200 miles one way once a month to see her thyroid specialist.
I can certainly agree with this. Medicare is an abject failure. Vet benefits are quickly becoming that way. And the other countries with socialized medicine do not have the US's population.fieldshowqueen wrote:If the US were going to go to health care for all, it would need to be a completely new system not based on Medicare, Vet benefits, or using other countries as an example.
I think our founding fathers (since evidently no one can think for themselves in the present day; we have to run all of our decisions through a filter of what we think a bunch of guys from 230 years ago would do) would be floored that 90% of the nation's wealth was in the control of 1% of the population. The rich and successful of 1776 weren't quite as rich and successful as the rich and successful of 2008.Eric B wrote:It also amazes me how black-and-white some people see the world, and how some people see the rich and successful as Everyman's ATM, concept which would have floored our founding fathers...
Therein lies the issue and brings up some primary questions ... why should you have to pay "good money" for prime care? In other words, wouldn't you rather use that money for something else and still get the same quality? Or ... what happens when you are old and grey and no longer making "good money" but you worked your arse off for 60 years making "good money". Does that now mean that because you aren't in the same position you should get lower quality care because you can't pay top dollar due to a fixed retirement income? That is the basic argument for Universal Health Care ... it should NOT be a capitalist commodity but rather a social service (which is the hypocratic oath in a nutshell really).ErinF wrote:Nope, dont agree with it at all. My husband and i work hard. We make good money and pay alot to get the health care we have. If you dont make enough money because you're either unlucky in life, uneducated, lazy, or whatever, then there ARE free services available even if they arent as good. If i want to pay more money so that i can have better health care than the next guy, then i should have that option available to me. It isnt fair that i pay alot money for my own care, then end up waiting doubly long in the doctors office because now our facilities are flooded with people who dont pay a dime.
They should focus on making the free clinics BETTER rather than trying to clump everyone together.