World of Pageantry

World of Pageantry

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Universal Healthcare
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:44 pm 
Offline
Grand PooBah
Grand PooBah
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:16 pm
Posts: 3431
Location: Alpha Quadrant
Yes or No?

_________________
Soldiering On!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:21 am 
Offline
Veteran
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:31 pm
Posts: 561
I think there's too much moral hazard associated with universal health care. It might work for some countries, but I highly doubt it'll ever work for the US.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:52 am 
Offline
Support Staff
Support Staff
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 12:58 pm
Posts: 3598
Location: Escondido, Ca
Nope, doesn't work, it's a fundamentally flawed system. I'm all for everyone being provided healthcare, but not at the cost of quality service. Not to mention the tremendous amount of tax that would be required to run a Universal Healthcare system. We already pay enough taxes. And what about people who go out of their way to take care of their body and rarely need medical care, why should they being paying the same for medical care as a lazy couch potato with an abundance of healthcare problems? I know some things are unavoidable, but it's still a valid argument. It's like gun control, ideally it's a wonderful idea, but realistically it's a terrible idea.

_________________
Go read "Ishmael" a novel by Daniel Quinn. It will literally change your life.
Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
Image


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:02 am 
Offline
Support Staff
Support Staff
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 6:46 am
Posts: 7936
Location: West Allis, WI
Baloney. I've got a dozen friends living in Canada and they are unanimous in their opinion that universal health care is a wonderful thing.

The problem is not that universal health care is a flawed concept; the problem is U.S. bureaucracy and the inefficiency with which the federal government spends money.

A capitalistic health care system (which the U.S. has) is abhorrent. I am currently suffering from a eyelid condition (meibomial gland dysfunction) that requires constant antibiotic treatment. Thankfully, I have very good health insurance. But on a recent trip to the pharmacy, I still had to pay $35 for 5ml of an eye-drop solution. Without insurances it would have run me close to $100. $100 for two tablespoons of fluid.

When I first met Melinda, she did not have health insurance. I had to accompany her to free clinics for treatment for a broken ankle. I can ASSURE you the "free" treatment she received was about 1/10th as good as the insurance-covered care she received two years ago when she broke her wrist.

The level of medical care a person receives should not be dependent upon their bank account. Period, the end.

The Aceman wrote:
And what about people who go out of their way to take care of their body and rarely need medical care, why should they being paying the same for medical care as a lazy couch potato with an abundance of healthcare problems?

Jeez, why should the white folk be paying for all the sickle-cell anemia treatments they'll never need? Why should all of us safe drivers be paying for the surgery and rehab of a kid who was street-racing and wrecked at 110 mph? Why should I have to pay for all those victims of a school shooting? I'm pro-gun control; if my views were enforced this wouldn't have happened.

Are you spotting the logical hole big enough to drive a truck through in your argument?

It amazes me how easy it is for most people to justify to themselves cruelty just for the sake of their pocketbook.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:19 am 
Offline
Veteran
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:21 pm
Posts: 444
Location: Rowland, CA
Actually, if universal heath care were to work in any country, it would work BEST in the United States. It's worked in Canada very well. Our nation has enough wealth to do it and in our capitalistic society, we try to make more money constantly.

As for moral hazard... HUH?

_________________
The o_O emoticon gives me the heebee jeebees.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:18 pm 
Offline
Grand PooBah
Grand PooBah
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:16 pm
Posts: 3431
Location: Alpha Quadrant
Universal Healthcare isn't what capitalism is about... you are supposed to make your own wealth and support yourself. The rich shouldn't have to support the poor.

_________________
Soldiering On!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:17 pm 
Offline
Support Staff
Support Staff
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 12:58 pm
Posts: 3598
Location: Escondido, Ca
Hah, did your friends mention having to wait 4 hours or MORE at the emergency room. Or how about waiting over a month to see a specialist. Dunno about you, but if I go to the emergency room, I want to be seen before 4 hours. Maybe 2 or 3 years for hip replacement surgery. Not to mention that 1 in 9 trained-in-canada doctors practice in the U.S. According to The New York Times, although privately funded clinics are illegal in Canada, many clinics are opening anyway, because patients don't like the long waiting lists in the government system. My aunt lives in Canada and needs insulin for her diabetes. When she was short, she had to wait 3 weeks just to renew her prescription. Not having insulin for 3 weeks is NOT an option. She had to get an "emergency supply" from the U.S. Universal Healthcare is representative of a totalitarian government, it doesn't work for the same reason totalitarianism doesn't work.

And strict gun-control laws would not get rid of violence. School shootings would still happen. Gun control laws don't destroy the guns. Not only that, do you think the military would disarm as well? No, that puts the government and military in more control than I'm willing to pass over.

_________________
Go read "Ishmael" a novel by Daniel Quinn. It will literally change your life.
Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
Image


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:36 pm 
Offline
Drum Major
Drum Major
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:24 am
Posts: 2490
Location: Moreno Valley, CA
I've posted about this before ... Canadian health care is NOT the bee's knees. A friend has to drive 200 miles one way once a month to see her thyroid specialist. She's had to wait for a "regular" follow up appointment for over 4 to 6 months ... one that was needed 2 weeks after the initial exam. She almost died trying to get an emergency prescription (had to get it here in the states from her sister's physician). Another friend in Australia will tell you similar stories about their system.

If the US were going to go to health care for all, it would need to be a completely new system not based on Medicare, Vet benefits, or using other countries as an example.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:16 pm 
Offline
New Recruit
New Recruit

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:38 pm
Posts: 31
Location: Long Beach, CA
Hostrauser wrote:
Are you spotting the logical hole big enough to drive a truck through in your argument?


No, but I know a few strawmen when I see 'em...

Quote:
It amazes me how easy it is for most people to justify to themselves cruelty just for the sake of their pocketbook.
It also amazes me how black-and-white some people see the world, and how some people see the rich and successful as Everyman's ATM, concept which would have floored our founding fathers...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:12 pm 
Offline
Support Staff
Support Staff
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 6:46 am
Posts: 7936
Location: West Allis, WI
FluteOfTheNewWorld wrote:
Universal Healthcare isn't what capitalism is about... you are supposed to make your own wealth and support yourself. The rich shouldn't have to support the poor.

Again I say Baloney. For one, capitalism has just as many flaws as any other economic policy (that's another topic altogether). For two, there has been a rich person ever made that hasn't done it on the backs of the poor. No matter what field of industry you're in, it doesn't run with out the poorly-paid grunt labor.

"United We Stand, Divide We Fall" isn't just a great revolutionary slogan; it's a pretty good economic policy, too.


The Aceman wrote:
Hah, did your friends mention having to wait 4 hours or MORE at the emergency room.

Been to an emergency room in SoCal recently? That happens here ALL the time. I had to wait several hours with my wife when she was getting her ankle cast off, because the free clinic was "first come, first serve" and did not take appointments.

Maybe making a bunch of sick and injured people start lining up at 5:00am in the cool, damp pre-dawn air sounds fine with you, but it rubs me the wrong way.


The Aceman wrote:
Or how about waiting over a month to see a specialist.

You think that doesn't happen here? Seriously, when was the last time you saw a specialist? It took me a month to see an eye specialist to figure out why I'm getting all these styes.

When you have time, try reading some of my friend TranceJen's medical horror stories. This was a woman who was falling down with seizures twice a day and she couldn't GET a specialist to see her because none of the specialists accept Medicare. She doesn't live in some podunk area, either: she lives in Chicago. There are hundreds of specialists in that region, and she had to fight for months just to get someone to LISTEN to her.

Finally, in July of 2007, she got an appointment with the Cleveland Clinic. In Cleveland. In OCTOBER. Over a two month wait.

Two days before the appointment, the Cleveland Clinic canceled on her.

If you think the health care system in this country isn't a nightmare for the poor, you have not been paying attention. As they said in American Beauty: look closer.


The Aceman wrote:
Dunno about you, but if I go to the emergency room, I want to be seen before 4 hours.

Dunno about you, but I've been to emergency rooms in San Diego where the wait has been SIX hours unless you were bleeding from the eyes (we left and went to a private clinic where the wait was less than two hours).

People have DIED in the emergency room waiting for treatment.


The Aceman wrote:
Universal Healthcare is representative of a totalitarian government, it doesn't work for the same reason totalitarianism doesn't work.

No, you're wrong.

Something like mandatory vaccinations is representative of a totalitarian government and... oh wait! We already have that.

Universal Healthcare is socialism. Socialism and Totalitarianism are not the same thing.


The Aceman wrote:
Not only that, do you think the military would disarm as well? No, that puts the government and military in more control than I'm willing to pass over.

Pff. I think you're terribly naive. I don't care if you have FIFTY rifles RIGHT NOW, do you think you can still out-firepower the military? If society ever degenerates to the point where the government is knocking on your door to pry the guns out of your cold, dead hands, trust me, they'll be knocking with tanks and rocket launchers, not MPs with sidearms.

Don't flatter yourself (or "us") by thinking that the "control" still remains in the hands of the people to "pass over."


fieldshowqueen wrote:
I've posted about this before ... Canadian health care is NOT the bee's knees. A friend has to drive 200 miles one way once a month to see her thyroid specialist.

Your confusing the source of the problem. This is not indicative of a poor health care system, this is indicative of the overwhelming rural and remote nature of Canadian life. All of the big cities with specialists are close to the U.S. border. I can only assume your friend does not live in Vancouver, Calgary, or Toronto? These numbers might be a little off, but I believe Canada has something like 12-15 cities over 300,000 in population spread out over 3.85 million square miles; California has 12 cities over 300,000 in population spread out over 163 thousand square miles.

Hell, if you lived in ALTURAS, CA you'd have to drive 200 miles one way to see a specialist. But that's not a reflection on the health care system at all.


fieldshowqueen wrote:
If the US were going to go to health care for all, it would need to be a completely new system not based on Medicare, Vet benefits, or using other countries as an example.

I can certainly agree with this. Medicare is an abject failure. Vet benefits are quickly becoming that way. And the other countries with socialized medicine do not have the US's population.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:17 pm 
Offline
Support Staff
Support Staff
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 6:46 am
Posts: 7936
Location: West Allis, WI
Eric B wrote:
It also amazes me how black-and-white some people see the world, and how some people see the rich and successful as Everyman's ATM, concept which would have floored our founding fathers...

I think our founding fathers (since evidently no one can think for themselves in the present day; we have to run all of our decisions through a filter of what we think a bunch of guys from 230 years ago would do) would be floored that 90% of the nation's wealth was in the control of 1% of the population. The rich and successful of 1776 weren't quite as rich and successful as the rich and successful of 2008.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:20 pm 
Offline
Drum Major
Drum Major
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 12:38 am
Posts: 2858
Location: Los Angeles
God I HATE running. I sincerely wouldn't mind becoming obese and not have to worry about the health costs. Getting fit is one less responsibility for mE!!!

_________________
WHS '05, UCSB '10
WOP OT Round 1 Picture Battle Champion!
WOP OT Mafia Game II: First ever mafia champions
http://officeofstrategicinfluence.com/spam/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:54 pm 
Offline
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:51 pm
Posts: 254
Nope, dont agree with it at all. My husband and i work hard. We make good money and pay alot to get the health care we have. If you dont make enough money because you're either unlucky in life, uneducated, lazy, or whatever, then there ARE free services available even if they arent as good. If i want to pay more money so that i can have better health care than the next guy, then i should have that option available to me. It isnt fair that i pay alot money for my own care, then end up waiting doubly long in the doctors office because now our facilities are flooded with people who dont pay a dime.
They should focus on making the free clinics BETTER rather than trying to clump everyone together.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:36 pm 
Offline
Drum Major
Drum Major
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:24 am
Posts: 2490
Location: Moreno Valley, CA
ErinF wrote:
Nope, dont agree with it at all. My husband and i work hard. We make good money and pay alot to get the health care we have. If you dont make enough money because you're either unlucky in life, uneducated, lazy, or whatever, then there ARE free services available even if they arent as good. If i want to pay more money so that i can have better health care than the next guy, then i should have that option available to me. It isnt fair that i pay alot money for my own care, then end up waiting doubly long in the doctors office because now our facilities are flooded with people who dont pay a dime.
They should focus on making the free clinics BETTER rather than trying to clump everyone together.

Therein lies the issue and brings up some primary questions ... why should you have to pay "good money" for prime care? In other words, wouldn't you rather use that money for something else and still get the same quality? Or ... what happens when you are old and grey and no longer making "good money" but you worked your arse off for 60 years making "good money". Does that now mean that because you aren't in the same position you should get lower quality care because you can't pay top dollar due to a fixed retirement income? That is the basic argument for Universal Health Care ... it should NOT be a capitalist commodity but rather a social service (which is the hypocratic oath in a nutshell really).

Things get hot under the collar when people think something they have is going to get taken away. The goals should be 1) setting up a system that would mesh with the current system; and 2) changing people's attitudes of entitlement. Both are like pulling teeth from an elephant.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:52 am 
Offline
Support Staff
Support Staff
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 12:58 pm
Posts: 3598
Location: Escondido, Ca
I'd have to say I'm being realistic, not naive. We aren't living in an idealogical society, and we never will.

_________________
Go read "Ishmael" a novel by Daniel Quinn. It will literally change your life.
Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
Image


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
  http://www.worldofpageantry.com Copyright © 1996 - 2006 Email:  admin@worldofpageantry.com  

Site design and maintenance by Dave Schaafsma at Dave's Web Dynamics