Web Programmers

[mkosbie]

Well, it seems time for me to approach the all mighty (and widely coveted) soapbox again. You see, I have an issue with modern web development practices. As a member and contributor of various technology forums (Experts Exchange, Google Groups, MSDN, etc), I find myself disheartened by the kinds of questions posted, and the kinds of answers the OP expects.

A general question might be of the form:

Please help me! I just downloaded Ernie Thomas's JavaBITS, and I can't make the floating boxes blink. Here's the code: *long post of ALL the code from the problem page*.

-- OR --

I'm working on developing a package to provide military-strength encryption for data input on my website, but I cannot seem to find a good port of RSA to JavaScript. Anybody know one?

In both cases the OP is either unable or unwilling to solve the problem themselves. Why is that the case? Simple: The OP's are not (in most cases) well versed in "Web Programming," but rather come from one of two other disciplines.

This happens because "Web Programming" exists at the confluence of these other disciplines. First you have Website Design, a field dealing with graphics, user interfaces, intuitiveness, presentation, etc. Second, you have Programming, a field dealing with problem solving, analysis, and efficiency. Members of each of these castes have an incredible amount of disdain for one another; each feeling themselves better equipped to be the "Web Programmer".

Unfortunately this results in questions like my two examples. The first was probably posted by a Script Kiddie (that is, a website designer who has learned just enough about javascript to make an alert box appear) who doesn't even know why he's using the "JavaBITS" to do what he is. That solution was recommended to him in another post a couple of months ago. By the time he's done he'll have cobbled together something barely manageable from a collection of Forum posts, online examples, and free "packages" that kind of does what he needs. G-d help him if it ever breaks.

The second is inevitably from a Code Junkie whose favorite language is Binary and doesn't understand why people need C++ to program "objects". To him, "JavaScript" is a pitiful "language" which he doesn't need to learn, only meld to his needs. He'll completely miss the point of scripting (which is an interpreted form of programming... very different from what he's used to). There are no packages. No ports. No types. The language is built around loosely supported definitions by a couple of major internet-browsers and unfortunately, it just cannot do some things. In the end, he'll have code with overhead so big you could build a small country with it.


Thank you, you may now return to your regularly scheduled posting.

[Fluba]

Id take the code junkie cause his would at least work. Optimization would be a PITA, but I think I would rather take a PITA over ripping my hair out when Script Kiddies' cobbled together web code goes boom.

And, yeah, JavaScript is just that. Script. It can a lot of stuff. But it cant do it all. That where you need to start dabbling into Applets, which are another PITA them selves. Oi, Java... You love it and you hate it.

[Bandmaster]

Most code and script junkies that I have seen have no clue what a practical page layout looks like. They format their pages in the most boring mathmatical way and they seldom think of potential users as just plain folks surfing the web. They don't worry about formatting text in the easiest way to be read by the user, they are just happy if it makes onto the screen.

[mkosbie]

they are just happy if it makes onto the screen.

Bravo!

That was exactly my point Dave. People who really understand the goals of website programming (Peter Paul Koch for instance) are few and far between.

[LoyalTubist]

I have somewhere between eight and twelve websites. No one sets them up except me. I know what I want to say.

[fieldshowqueen]

they are just happy if it makes onto the screen.

Bravo!
That was exactly my point Dave. People who really understand the goals of website programming (Peter Paul Koch for instance) are few and far between.

I disagree ... the web is also a training ground. I know there is a lot of "junk" out there, but if we limit the internet to only those who are the elite in what they do, then we all will be worse off. Most of even the worst sites have some knowledge or information to share. Just because it isn't in the format YOU like, or your idea of pretty, does not make it any less important. I've seen some beautiful sites spew out political, religious, and educational caca-doodoo.

[mkosbie]

Oh, I have no problem with the web being a training ground. Or with teaching other people how to "master" web programming (I quote to emphasize that I in no way consider myself a master).

My problem is with people who are happy to get the "junk" on the screen and never look back. People who aren't here to learn to be better, or to use the medium better, but rather to get a semblance of a website on screen, and then be done with it.

It would be like Geoffrey Chaucer publishing a last minute collection of ideas on what the rest of the Canterbury Tales might have been like. Or Picasso claiming his first ever drawing that he made in school was his grand masterpiece. Consider if Michelangelo had thrown something together on the ceiling of the Sistine because he was a sculptor at heart who didn't like to paint.

[fieldshowqueen]

Oh, I have no problem with the web being a training ground. Or with teaching other people how to "master" web programming (I quote to emphasize that I in no way consider myself a master).

My problem is with people who are happy to get the "junk" on the screen and never look back. People who aren't here to learn to be better, or to use the medium better, but rather to get a semblance of a website on screen, and then be done with it.

It would be like Geoffrey Chaucer publishing a last minute collection of ideas on what the rest of the Canterbury Tales might have been like. Or Picasso claiming his first ever drawing that he made in school was his grand masterpiece. Consider if Michelangelo had thrown something together on the ceiling of the Sistine because he was a sculptor at heart who didn't like to paint.

and? I see no problem with any of that.

[Hostrauser]

My problem is with people who are happy to get the "junk" on the screen and never look back. People who aren't here to learn to be better, or to use the medium better, but rather to get a semblance of a website on screen, and then be done with it.

It would be like Geoffrey Chaucer publishing a last minute collection of ideas on what the rest of the Canterbury Tales might have been like. Or Picasso claiming his first ever drawing that he made in school was his grand masterpiece. Consider if Michelangelo had thrown something together on the ceiling of the Sistine because he was a sculptor at heart who didn't like to paint.

I agree with FSQ... and?

Your argument leaves no room for anything but excellence. A parallel argument, I know, but your first sentence could be applied to my composition technique: I just get the "junk" written and never look back. Should my pieces never be played or shown to anyone with a music degree simply because of this?

I don't feel things are useless just because they might be stylistically imperfect (or even flat out shabby). And I don't feel that stylistic perfection has to be everyone's consideration. You commented that " People who aren't here to learn to be better, or to use the medium better, but rather to get a semblance of a website on screen, and then be done with it." Again, I don't see anything wrong with that. I don't feel that the expectation to "learn to be better" is appropriate to be applied to everyone on the web. Code cleanliness, while desirable, still should be optional in all cases, not mandatory.

[mkosbie]

Hostrauser and FSQ, I'm quite sure that what you produce today (in your respective fields) is much better than what you produced in the beginning. Now, the fact is, you couldn't have produced this "good" stuff without the experience of producing all the "bad" stuff that you did (inevitably) over the years. That kind of "bad" work I think is absolutely essential. Without it, how would we ever learn? I'm often horrified to revisit some of the first websites I programmed to try and decipher my own code.

I just don't see the value of the half-assed "I need to have something..." work. I know it's my opinion (and one that a couple of people seem to disagree with), but right now I'm not inclined to change it. Maybe I'm bias from all the time I've spent trying to decipher ugly code handed down to me. Half the time, while the in-place system works, we have to scrap it to make changes.

[Hostrauser]

I just don't see the value of the half-assed "I need to have something..." work.

Well, I can only assume (based on your age) that you haven't spent very much time (ie, several years) in the corporate environment. I'll give you an example...

I do corporate invoicing. A normal day for me is 3-5 invoices. We have a fairly rigid schedule in that I have x number of invoices to create in any given financial period. X, being a variable, can vary by +/- 25 or so.

Assume the following: I have 20 invoices that MUST be billed before the end of the financial period. I have two days to do them. There are no other alternatives, it's a fixed requirement and a fixed deadline.
Option 1) do my usual, excellent, 100% job and complete 10 invoices and get fired.
Option 2) do a half-assed, good, 75% job and complete 20 invoices and come back to work next week.

Which would you choose?

There are other examples that don't involve being "under-the-gun." But I assure you, while not desirable, "half-assed" jobs most definitely have their place in most work environments.

[fieldshowqueen]

I just don't see the value of the half-assed "I need to have something..." work.

Well, I can only assume (based on your age) that you haven't spent very much time (ie, several years) in the corporate environment. I'll give you an example...

I do corporate invoicing. A normal day for me is 3-5 invoices. We have a fairly rigid schedule in that I have x number of invoices to create in any given financial period. X, being a variable, can vary by +/- 25 or so.

Assume the following: I have 20 invoices that MUST be billed before the end of the financial period. I have two days to do them. There are no other alternatives, it's a fixed requirement and a fixed deadline.
Option 1) do my usual, excellent, 100% job and complete 10 invoices and get fired.
Option 2) do a half-assed, good, 75% job and complete 20 invoices and come back to work next week.

Which would you choose?

There are other examples that don't involve being "under-the-gun." But I assure you, while not desirable, "half-assed" jobs most definitely have their place in most work environments.

... adding to Hostrauser's comments:

Boy would you have hated what I used to do for a living!! People would come in to my office and ask me for something on-the-fly ... nothing fancy and not pretty but needed RIGHT NOW ... to prove a point. I would write the worst queries you have ever seen syntax-wise, but the answer would be produced and the point made thus freeing me up for the next of the 1000 people in line. Sometimes a "perfectly designed" web page in a format we want and like is a possiblity; sometimes it is not.

I have hired a lot of people, both in a corporate environment and as a business owner. SOMETIMES perfection is a good thing depending on the job or the position. MOST of the time, flexibility and honesty are the key. Personality wise, about 50% of the people out there have that "D" personality (flexible, honest, etc.); about 40% are "I" or easy-going party people; 5% are "S" or wishy-washy and must be told what to do; and 5% are "C" or calculative and idealists. Seeing the world in black and white based on idealistic views is a roadblock most people do not need to live from day to day. There is a very real danger putting a person with a perfectionist attitude in a position of power.

Regarding this thread ...
I agree with Hostrauser regarding the experience issue, but I would ask why you felt it necessary to bring this argument to THIS particular forum? Yes, there are people out there who disagree with you (just as there are people out there who agree with you); and no, we do not expect you to change your mind just because we see things differently; HOWEVER, as a moderator (who is supposed to be "moderate" in the larger sense of the definition), you should be able to see a very large grey-zone on a larger number of issues. TELLING others "Your idea sucks" just because you have an issue with it turns people off; asking a question then LISTENING to others to formulate an opinion different that the one you currently have is a skill that takes a long time for many people to master. Discussion of issues with a trade of ideas and information is always welcome; argument and debate are not. My answer many times, just as it is this time, is "live and let live" or "lets agree to disagree" so we can solve larger issues like attaining world peace or finding a cure for cancer (humor intended).

There are always more than two sides to a coin.
Soap box is empty and ready for the next regularly scheduled speaker.

[mkosbie]

Call me a controversy starter, but I like to get people's opinions on this kind of stuff. I find it helps me make better opinions for myself. So, while I did not put this topic up to lambaste anyone, I was hoping to get a little discussion from it (which I think I did).

[DJ-PsiLon]

I got my degree in Computer Science and one of my professors said it best: depends.

What it comes down to is requirements. As a Business Analyst gathering the requirements gives an impression of what's needed. Sometimes you just need a simple page with a pretty interface and organized information. Other times you need an enterprise level CMS or ERP solution. In the end you're serving the end user and personally I'd rather have something simple and organized with an easy navigation. I don't care if the application's algorithm runs O(1) or O(n) fast but is crappy and confusing with the interface.

[fieldshowqueen]

I got my degree in Computer Science and one of my professors said it best: depends.

What it comes down to is requirements. As a Business Analyst gathering the requirements gives an impression of what's needed. Sometimes you just need a simple page with a pretty interface and organized information. Other times you need an enterprise level CMS or ERP solution. In the end you're serving the end user and personally I'd rather have something simple and organized with an easy navigation. I don't care if the application's algorithm runs O(1) or O(n) fast but is crappy and confusing with the interface.

Bingo! The complaint phone line at The Home Depot was an example of this. I was asked monthly to summarize calls by store, region, etc. and wrote a very simple end-user program (in Access using VBA!) which allowed the operators to key the information in, key in the results of the complaint, and close it out; plus spit out various reports. It was nothing fancy and they personally didn't care what it looked like because it was saving them (and me) 100's of hours a month in compilation. Eventually someone from the "computer god" department made it look pretty and cleaned up the coding, but it did the job it was meant to do at the time.