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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:37 pm 
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I don't think the answer is turning NCBA into WGI.

NCBA has it's own philosophy and it grew (as I understand it anyway) out of the desire to offer an alternative to WGI. Ok, why not simply embrace that difference? How about focusing on some fundamental change within the existing construct of NCBA? What about taking advantage of the fact that this is an election year and there's an opportunity to vote some forward-thinking leaders onto the board? IMO, that's a huge opportunity for change. The membership is calling for the same changes now that they were calling for 5 years ago. It's the buy-in of the board that's the real key to BIG change, and if you haven't recognized that yet, then it's time to set down your kool aid cup and rub the stars out of your eyes. It's not the sheets, or the judges (cuz some of us are like American Express and are "everywhere you wanna' be"), or the venues, or training, or even the inconsistency in criteria application that's the crucial first step to curing the hiccups. It's the leadership and their commitment to the status quo that needs to change first. Until that changes, nothing else will, no matter how many meetings you attend.

It's like the activity itself. You make basics your focus until you have 'em down THEN you're free to be creative.


.


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:29 pm 
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backtobasics05 wrote:
Im sorry Psalm but...
NCBA Champs this year is another example. I'm sorry, but in my humble opinion none of the shows that day (including the top 3 units) should've had scores that high. The next weekend at CCGC, Bethel scored a 91 (a much lower score) and that was with a much better show the next weekend (just saying) so again the sheets and judging here need to be adjusted and addressed.

Many units in NCBA are in multiple circuits and for them to accel they need constructive, concrete, and more universal critiques. A few judges in NCBA that do other circuits have also expressed their issues with NCBA sheets as well, so... if the people adjudicating have said it then please help them do their jobs better and let's get the WGI sheets in there and lets have some kind of training or updating for the judges. and yes I will be at the meeting. :shock:


The sheets and the circuit are designed to be something different than WGI. If we wanted to be a WGI circuit, we would. I do admit that some more clarification of the sheets and judge training, as stated will help. The weight of our sheets are different than WGI. 25% of our total score is visual. Many of our top judges reworked the old sheets to read the way they do currently. Our current system allows for many groups to accell and participate without the feeling of going broke to support their season's winter show. In reaching out to as many schools as we can, we are providing a great service to those students. This in no way negates our responsibilities to give the best adjudication to those groups. It is however going to be different than the other circuits. It is designed that way.

I have taught and written for shows in many of these circuits (NCBA,WGI,CCGC,SCPA) and find pros and cons in each of them. Kind of like teaching at different schools, you learn to find the strengths of each program and develop them. Or, you implode like a watermelon being attacked by a firefighter hose. :P
I too have experienced one of my NCBA groups finishing 1st at a Friday show. The next day (2 show day) against many of the same groups and took 3rd and 8th. A week later at champs they performed first in their class of ten groups and wound up 2nd over all in the Advanced class. It was frustrating with the huge swing of placement. The end result worked out alright.

My point is that having these discussions can create a positive awareness for the judges that are involved. Let us focus on building up the strengths of our association and make appropriate tweaks built on a timeline. Saying "this xyz circuit is the end all be all" is a simplistic answer that doesn't progress our activity in a way this circuit and its members want to.

Again, through the ups and downs of some of the school's scores
students were constructively educated and awarded for their accomplishments. Some years ago, I remember having a discussion with a judge that was given a recap to a non NCBA comp in the attempt to "line" up his scoring for that association's event. He supported NCBA's fresh slate approach.

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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:34 pm 
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backtobasics05 wrote:
Im sorry Psalm but...

Both those schools when they came to NCBA had an uphill battle to do well and their scores jumped up and down every week in NCBA but in CCGC things were very consistant. So please stop using these two schools as your example of why NCBA is not broken. The reason why these two schools did well is because their staff designed the shows with WGI sheets in mind and NOT NCBA sheets. And another thing, in CCGC when Bethel and Benicia met earlier in the season, I believe the score gap between the two was a pretty generous margin, but the following week or so when they were both in NCBA their scores got ridiculously close like within tenths and hundreths of a point as seen normally in NCBA shows.

NCBA Champs this year is another example. I'm sorry, but in my humble opinion none of the shows that day (including the top 3 units) should've had scores that high. The next weekend at CCGC, Bethel scored a 91 (a much lower score) and that was with a much better show the next weekend (just saying) so again the sheets and judging here need to be adjusted and addressed.

Many units in NCBA are in multiple circuits and for them to accel they need constructive, concrete, and more universal critiques. A few judges in NCBA that do other circuits have also expressed their issues with NCBA sheets as well, so... if the people adjudicating have said it then please help them do their jobs better and let's get the WGI sheets in there and lets have some kind of training or updating for the judges. and yes I will be at the meeting. :shock:


Thanks for your response...one of the many things that I enjoyed in your post.."I will be at the meeting" ...looking forward to your Jun 5, 2010 presentation in regards to how to fix the "broken NCBA."


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:23 pm 
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Someone earlier said (paraphrase) that one way to get change to happen is to get some new people on the board. Well, I am running AGAIN. I would encourage others who would like to make some progress and/or change to happen to run as well. Yep...I lost last year. Losing doesn't stop me.

Let's remember though...at last year's NCBA June meeting, there were several other people BESIFE me who ran and what happened? ALL THE INCUMBENTS WON. HHHHMMMM...maybe NCBA does reflect our nation. Some NCBA people have more than one vote like some people in our country will have more than one vote because of their wealth. AND WHAT ABOUT THIS "PROXY THING?" Who is ready to take on proxy voting??!! Sure some of you "can't" be at the meeting because you CHOSE to do something else that day; that is your situation - not our situation. Every choice has a consequence/result. YOU NEED TO BE AT THE NCBA MEETING TO VOTE. JUST LIKE -- YOU NEED TO BE AT THE POLLING PLACE TO VOTE FOR YOUR ELECTED OFFICIALS OR PROPOSITIONS (or send in your absentee ballot for officials or propositions). Why is NCBA voting process any different?!


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:09 pm 
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OK, so lets have those absentee ballots, no, wait, we don't know whos running or what the propositions are or what positions on the board are open? And if we have to , by laws of incorporation, have proxy voting what are the parameters-in other words what must there be proxies for? Certainly not EVERYTHING or we would never pass a prop. And who's to say that someone has not used my vote as a prozy for their own purposes.
Funny how I have not heard these issues brought up at events or through casual conversation when I meet people? I get it, my kids tell me I'm pretty scary so maybe no one wants to talk about this around me. So I'm the Trouble Maker, Aye! Just take a look at these posts!


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:35 pm 
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mrbrianplowman wrote:
backtobasics05 wrote:
The sheets and the circuit are designed to be something different than WGI. If we wanted to be a WGI circuit, we would. I do admit that some more clarification of the sheets and judge training, as stated will help. The weight of our sheets are different than WGI. 25% of our total score is visual. Many of our top judges reworked the old sheets to read the way they do currently. Our current system allows for many groups to accell and participate without the feeling of going broke to support their season's winter show.


That is quite a weird statement considering only 20% of the total score in WGI is visual. Would you care to elaborate?


I would also like to argue that some groups still get more credit than deserved in NCBA because of how many uniforms they can wear at one time or how much shiny/fancy stuff they have. Just my opinion, don't freak out...


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:27 pm 
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gcarrasco wrote:
OK, so lets have those absentee ballots, no, wait, we don't know whos running or what the propositions are or what positions on the board are open? CORRECT. And if we have to , by laws of incorporation, have proxy voting what are the parameters-in other words what must there be proxies for? PROXIES ARE ALLOWED FOR ANY ITEM VOTED UPON. THERE ARE SOME BOARD MEMBERS WHO HAVE UP TO FIVE - FIVE - VOTES (either by how much they do and /or proxy votes from absent members). FIVE VOTES PER A BOARD MEMBER?? HOW IS THAT DEMOCRATIC?! ONE VOTE PER MEMBER. NO ONE SHOULD BE RECEIVING MORE VOTES BECAUSE ONE DOES MORE. IN AN ELECTION, I CERTAINLY DO NOT GET MORE VOTES BECAUSE I HAVE MORE CHILDREN IN MY FAMILY OR BECAUSE I MAKE MORE MONEY THAN THE DUDE ACROSS THE STREET. WHAT THE HECK IS NCBA STILL DOING GIVING HOSTS AN EXTRA VOTE BECAUSE THEY HOST AN NCBA EVENT? HECK...I WANT TO HOST, BUT THERE IS NO OPEN WEEKEND AND BECAUSE THERE IS NO OPEN WEEKEND I CAN'T HOST WHICH MEANS I CAN NOT GET AN EXTRA VOTE??? WRONG!!! :td: Certainly not EVERYTHING or we would never pass a prop. And who's to say that someone has not used my vote as a prozy for their own purposes.
Funny how I have not heard these issues brought up at events or through casual conversation when I meet people? I get it, my kids tell me I'm pretty scary so maybe no one wants to talk about this around me. go to the june 5, 2010 meeting and you can see it first hand. So I'm the Trouble Maker, Aye! Just take a look at these posts!


I do hope you will be able to attend the June 5, 2010 meeting.


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:32 pm 
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Be careful what you wish for...there are still those who attended "my" last meeting and are still feeling out of sorts (i try to be nice). Jojo has made the case for improvement that we should all be aware of...and with that be willing to take responcibility for: interms of taking on the owness, the weight, the ownership that is requiered for any organization to succeed: time , effort, communication at whatever the cost, knowledge of the subject matter, understanding in this new age of politic, the profound need of our youth to feel success in these very frustrating times and ofcoarse the clear vision to plan for our own obsolescence. Nice words, hard task! Please praise all those who have come before us for they have paid the price for our discovery. And now truly understand the the hard road ahead! I'm kinda relieved I will not be a band director next year - math anyone?


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:12 am 
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danceswithwood wrote:
Flame retardant suit ::on::

I don't think the answer is turning NCBA into WGI.


.


I disagree. WGI is a world class organization dealing with world class high schools and independent groups. It is the reason why winter percussion even exists.

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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:14 am 
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I agree. Each member should get one vote, and one vote only. I don't see how it is a true representation of the membership if a proposal gets passed on the floor by 20+ people, and then is shot down at a table with less than 10 people.

I wonder how much of a stir it would cause at the table, if each member showed up with 5 proxy votes...

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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:04 am 
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Proxy voting is common in most corporations (any of you belong to AAA and get a proxy ballot for board of directors in the mail??? I do).

It is simply a way of absentee voting (we have all heard of or done that).

The corporate rules state that before the meeting any member may give his/her written and signed proxy to another member. Those proxies have to be presented to the secretary before the meeting.

Thus, yes, a single member could show up with 1, 2, or 25 proxy votes.

Another reason we need to go to a ONE vote, ONE school system and adjust membership fees accordingly. And I agree, a show host should not get a vote just because they are a show host (and I am one).

I have talked to many people about the upcoming election (it is my job to compile a slate), and opened it up here on WoP some weeks ago. As of this date NO ONE HAS PUT UP THEIR NAME TO RUN WHO HAS NOT BEEN ON THE BOARD BEFORE. :nenr:

JS


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:08 am 
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8-ball wrote:
mrbrianplowman wrote:
backtobasics05 wrote:
The sheets and the circuit are designed to be something different than WGI. If we wanted to be a WGI circuit, we would. I do admit that some more clarification of the sheets and judge training, as stated will help. The weight of our sheets are different than WGI. 25% of our total score is visual. Many of our top judges reworked the old sheets to read the way they do currently. Our current system allows for many groups to accell and participate without the feeling of going broke to support their season's winter show.


That is quite a weird statement considering only 20% of the total score in WGI is visual. Would you care to elaborate?


I would also like to argue that some groups still get more credit than deserved in NCBA because of how many uniforms they can wear at one time or how much shiny/fancy stuff they have. Just my opinion, don't freak out...


No problem!

Just stating that our scores will be different (compared to WGI) due to the different weighted captions. That being said, we can always improve our evaluations and scoring of these groups.
I miss seeing you around. Hope Reno is treating you well!

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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:24 am 
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Intriguing thread....

I like many of the ideas and comments that are coming up in discussion. Many of the ideas aren't new and have even been proposed in some form or another over the years. Change is slow in the association. We can fix the problems in the NCBA. There has been a huge rally cry from people on WOP and at the winter shows this year to get folks to the June meeting. It's been a while since I've seen this kind of passion from the membership.... and it's good to see.

I am running for the winter activities board position once again, as I did last June. I believe we need to have stronger judges training (I am a judge too). Training to clarify philosophy of the sheets and numbers management would be huge in terms of creating a better sense of consistency from week to week, show to show.... although this is still a subjective activity and there will always be discrepencies. This NEEDS to happen.

I don't know where I stand on the proxies, but I know there is something wrong when three people are holding about 30% of the vote. I think the proxies could work if we knew ahead of time who was running for what positions and what other proposals were on the table (I think Mr. Carrasco said this). One could them send the proxy and an "absentee ballot".

I will share my proposals on this forum soon. I am still finishing writing them up. I would to hear feedback on them when I do post.


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:05 pm 
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olledowerdna wrote:
danceswithwood wrote:
Flame retardant suit ::on::

I don't think the answer is turning NCBA into WGI.


.


I disagree. WGI is a world class organization dealing with world class high schools and independent groups. It is the reason why winter percussion even exists.



Yeah I think I heard something about WGI somewhere once, lol.

Seriously, I'm aware that WGI is the recognized standard of excellence when it comes to winter activities BUT WGI is also the reason NCBA exists. NCBA was born out of the desire to provide an alternate to WGI. I can't help but ask what's to be gained by making NCBA into another WGI-affiliate when we already have CCGC and the Modesto and San Joaquin WGI affiliates nearby? Granted I'm a guard person so maybe I don't grasp your percussion perspective on this but it seems to me there's room for both philosophies, no?



.



.


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:19 pm 
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Am I crazy or did NCBA and WGI have their first Winter Percussion the same season? Wasn't it 1993???

If that is the case, then how does anyone come off saying NCBA was formed as an alternate to WGI? (seriously, I'm asking...so help me out historical folks)


I don't think NCBA has to all of the sudden become a WGI affiliate and use their sheets. Yes, WGI is great and the sheets are wonderful...but I think making such a drastic change would leave a lot of ensembles left behind the times and also not be very rewarding to its competitors. It's not very fun to score a 40 at championships because the criteria locks you into a box...


I do strongly agree with what a few people have said about the change happening at the top. Doesn't matter what circuit it is if the leadership is poor.


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