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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:42 pm 
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Psalm 56 wrote:
gcarrasco wrote:
"TIME LIMITATIONS:

Junior High: minimum 2 minutes/maximum 7-1/2 minutes

High School: minimum 3 minutes/maximum 7-1/2 minutes

The timing begins when the music starts or with the first movement. Timing ends with the obvious conclusion of the show. The equipment crew is not included in the timing of the show. All units will have a total of 10 minutes to set up perform and clear the floor."
"PENALTIES:

1. There will be a 1-point penalty for each 30 seconds of overtime/undertime."

SORRY Folks I am about to throw another wrench in the works. At the Granada percussion comp Jesse Bethal took a 1-point penalty for being 25 seconds overtime. I am not disputing the overtime, they were over. My concern is the penalty effect of the rule. After 10 min. " There will be a 1-point penalty for each 30 seconds of overtime..."
This means ,if read correctly, that a drumline could time out at 10min.29seconds and Not TAKE A PENALTY. Take a moment and digest this. After 10min. a 1-point for every 30 SECONDS overtime (not 25 like Bethal) 30 SECONDS.

Now read the winterguard timing rule.
PENALTIES:

All timing penalties shall be 0.1 of a point per 5 seconds or fraction thereof. All boundary and standard equipment penalties shall be of 0.1 of a point per offense. NOTICE "...0.1 of a point per 5 seconds OR FRACTION THEREOF..."
That pretty much covers it.


Another interesting fact to bring up at the June 5, 2010 NCBA meeting at Foothill High School . Looking forward to the presentation of this fact and the response from the board. All in all KIND OF A DIFFERENT TOPIC, tangent if you will...LIVERMORE HS & GRANADA HS did a nice job running their shows. Thank you Dean and Tom.

To vote...attend the NCBA meetings and say "no to proxy voting." Just an idea.



Speaking of Granada high school. I'd like to see Perc shows in the "big gym" for a change. It's such high vantage point in there (one of the highest in NCBA if I am correct) I bet it'd give the judges a better read and the perc fans a great show.

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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:20 pm 
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Hello to everyone watching...Please post so we know who is really interested...


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:33 am 
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Slaphappy7 wrote:
Speaking of Granada high school. I'd like to see Perc shows in the "big gym" for a change. It's such high vantage point in there (one of the highest in NCBA if I am correct) I bet it'd give the judges a better read and the perc fans a great show.


It depends on how large the show is at Granada. If the show is small enough everyone would be in the big gym, it was that way in 2008. If I recall, there was around 50 units at that show that year. This year and last year, there were over 70 units which is the equivalent of 12 hours of just competition.

The vantage point at Granada is quite unique. Although there are only 11 rows in the gym, due to the platform they set up, the judges get the opportunity to look over the units like they would in a gym that is 18 rows high but are rather close the performers.


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:58 am 
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Good morning, I was just perusing through here. Would someone be able to help me understand the meaning behind the statement referenced below? I just wanted to make sure I understand what the poster is attempting to convey here, please forgive any inconvenience my incompetence may cause during the course of discussion in this topic. Thanks.

olledowerdna wrote:
Without NCBA, then almost 100% of marching music programs in the bay area would vanish.

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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:05 am 
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MIDPRONIUM wrote:
Good morning, I was just perusing through here. Would someone be able to help me understand the meaning behind the statement referenced below? I just wanted to make sure I understand what the poster is attempting to convey here, please forgive any inconvenience my incompetence may cause during the course of discussion in this topic. Thanks.

olledowerdna wrote:
Without NCBA, then almost 100% of marching music programs in the bay area would vanish.


I think this quote is dealing with what our nation is dealing with : EXTREMES. The statement to me is as extreme as: BROKEN NCBA. Thanks for finding this quote to give us some vision of what others are seeing and/or who/what we are dealing with.

No slam on olledowerdna. He is sharing his opinion.

Let me be able to write...There are plenty of marching bands who don't participate in ANY CIRCUIT ... NCBA or the all knowing - SARCASM IMPLIED - WBA. Both circuits are serving people.

HAPPY EASTER...hhhmmm...Spending Easter on W.O.P.??? Need to re-think that one. At least I can write HAPPY EASTER.


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:23 am 
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Nice to hear from someone new ( I think?) Keep reading the hits keep coming and please feel free to offer a few facts to the mix. By the way mine have already done a "Hunt" and this is the quite before the storm...


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:02 pm 
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There are plenty of examples to show "issues" with NCBA WINTERPERCUSSION JUDGING... And NOW let's look for something positive. Both CCGC and -- to use the following term given by someone else -- the "BROKEN NCBA" had S.TOWNE and J.BETHEL in first place at both this year's 'championship shows.'

So, really...how far apart are the two associations? How "broken" is NCBA? NCBA "breaking???" Maybe... NCBA "cracking???" Maybe... NCBA "broken??" Hardly...

There are some amazing people who are going to come up with some amazing solutions and probably can come up with a positive example or two of NCBA. Even I need to show a positive thing or two about the association I have been a part of since I was at Tokay High School (1989-1994). NCBA IS NOT BROKEN!!


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:07 am 
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Good circuits DO NOT hold both color guard and percussion at the SAME school......Plain and simple.

Good circuits make sure that they have gyms with large enough doors, floors, and bleachers to host a good show...

Good circuits make sure there is absolutely NOTHING on the performance floor.....(Speakers, tables, chairs, cones)....Unnecessary things that ultimately end up getting in the way of the performers, and can be easily moved, but aren't.

Good circuits make sure the lights are turned on at the show, so it doesn't look like the bat cave when the kids are performing. (Livermore)

Good circuits have sheets that actually make sense, and tie into WGI, which is the "Big Boss" of the activity. So why try to create your own judging sheets when WGI has proven that theirs are the most efficient????

Good circuits COMMUNICATE with their schools and judges.

Good circuits hold a critique!!! (Truly impossible to improve scores when judges don't communicate to each other.) In all honesty though....You will never ever see the Blue Devils, Phantom Regiment, Cavaliers, or Rhythm X, RCC, or MCM drop, or gain MASSIVE amounts of points from one show to the next. It's a steady climb from where the group started to where they ended, and the scores should reflect that. NCBA's scores never do....completely random every show.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

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R.I.P "Nonno" - Tony Odello - Founder of the Blue Devils


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:39 pm 
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To add to olledowerdna's great comments, from a judges perspective [yes, I am one in several of the circuits], being able to take a recap home to review my numbers and compare them to the other judges while everything is fresh in my head is awesome ... a time to reflect on what I did. NCBA never allows this ... at least they have finally begun to put them up on their website later so some reflection is possible. Other circuits give you a recap on the way out and it's awesome to be able to mull things over immediately. Also, NCBA takes judges tote sheets ... again a bad move that makes NCBA seem like the Gustapo - - - judges should be able to keep their totes to again reflect and, more importantly, to be able to write some notes down about what stood out. This would really help if critiques ever came into play. All other circuits could care less about a judge's tote, but come to NCBA and Elsie will not give you a check without one.
OH YEAH ... HERE'S MY FAVORITE ... some of you may not know that NCBA takes membership dues from judges. You have to PAY to judge. In WBA, CCGC, CVGPC, SJCGPR you get PAID to judge. The members are the bands that compete and their fees go to pay the judges. In NCBA the judges pay part of their own compensation. You wonder why NCBA has trouble getting the cream of the crop adjudicators? Start here. "Hi Scott Johnson, we would like you to come and judge the Foothill Show, but, um, we need you to pay for your NCBA membership fee first." Ridiculous. When you see a WBA panel, compare it to the typical NCBA panal. Notice, Vinnie and Gavin have all but disappeared from NCBA this winter ... they seem to have headed off to CCGC and CVGPC ... guess they didn't want to pay to judge anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:31 am 
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Im sorry Psalm but...

Both those schools when they came to NCBA had an uphill battle to do well and their scores jumped up and down every week in NCBA but in CCGC things were very consistant. So please stop using these two schools as your example of why NCBA is not broken. The reason why these two schools did well is because their staff designed the shows with WGI sheets in mind and NOT NCBA sheets. And another thing, in CCGC when Bethel and Benicia met earlier in the season, I believe the score gap between the two was a pretty generous margin, but the following week or so when they were both in NCBA their scores got ridiculously close like within tenths and hundreths of a point as seen normally in NCBA shows.

NCBA Champs this year is another example. I'm sorry, but in my humble opinion none of the shows that day (including the top 3 units) should've had scores that high. The next weekend at CCGC, Bethel scored a 91 (a much lower score) and that was with a much better show the next weekend (just saying) so again the sheets and judging here need to be adjusted and addressed.

Many units in NCBA are in multiple circuits and for them to accel they need constructive, concrete, and more universal critiques. A few judges in NCBA that do other circuits have also expressed their issues with NCBA sheets as well, so... if the people adjudicating have said it then please help them do their jobs better and let's get the WGI sheets in there and lets have some kind of training or updating for the judges. and yes I will be at the meeting. :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:57 am 
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I will be at the meeting in spirit since I'll be rehearsing all day, everyday at that point....

But trust me I'd be there if I could....I got the keys to the joint! haha

I hope some things get done there.

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Freelancers Winter Percussion 2004, 2006-2008, 2010

BDB Snare Tech - 2012-2014
Foothill HS & California HS Percussion Caption Head - 2009-2014

R.I.P "Nonno" - Tony Odello - Founder of the Blue Devils


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:28 am 
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I haven't waded in here, for good reason. I have had some issues with judging in the circuit, and I have spoken to the "powers" that be, and I feel I was listened to and my concernes were addressed. Is everything perfect now? No, but this is an inexact science run by humans, so it won't be. The key is for those of us involved to continue to strive to make things better.

And before we hold up WGI and DCI and whatever solutions we want to hold up saying "this is how it should be", lets remember all the tweaking that happens year to year to improve the judging within those organizations. If they had all the answers, they wouldn't have to change anything, right? I've watched some DCI championships and reacted with "really?, REALLY?" more than once. To their credit, they keep trying to address the issues, and make improvements every year. This is what we need to do.

NCBA is a good organization. The people who have been running this circuit for many years have put time and effort into providing an opportunity for our students to participate in these kinds of experiences. They aren't getting rich from it, they are retired (several of them,) and they still keep giving back.

If we want things to change, we need to become more involved. I have heard the 'I 've tried but change isn't going to happen' argument, and if that's your feeling OK, but then don't complain. We can make it better, if enough people are willing to do the work.

I also caution all of you that these proceedings are open to the public. Maybe it's not important how this activity is percieved by the students and public to you, but it is to many . Let's focus on things we can do to make the circuit better, and not take pot shots at individual schools, judges, or officers. These people and organizations are doing a lot to make NCBA work. They deserve some credit.

My 2 cents...

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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:36 am 
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olledowerdna wrote:
Good circuits DO NOT hold both color guard and percussion at the SAME school......Plain and simple.


Well, I don't want to be in that circuit BTW because right now, our units share a floor for monetary reasons, and I take our units to shows where I have both units on site. My equipment crew for Guard is generally the Percussion unit, and for Percussion the Guard.

I think if you were the person dealing with the logistics of a program, you might think this through a little differently. As a director, this is actually something I look for.

Again, my 2 cents.

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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:58 am 
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If you are worried about how the public will view things that people say, THEN DON'T TALK ABOUT IT ON A PUBLIC FORUM.

Simple solution...


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:14 pm 
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OK-I wasn't saying that this topic wasn't appropriate for discussion on a public forum, I was saying certain specific things, personalities and specific circumstances did not need to be discussed. This topic is totally appropriate.

If that wasn't clear, then please accept my apologies. I do believe that we should discuss how we improve the problems, what the problems are, but leave the PEOPLE and PERSONAL ATTACKS out of this equation.

Hope that clarifies things!

:)

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