NCBA Judging

[gcarrasco]

Actually, training (also known as the aforementioned "T" word), takes minimal money. The problem is, when the NCBA would have "required training meetings" (about 8-10 years ago), there would actually be decent attendance...with little to nothing happening at the meeting. Actually, it turned more into a "hang out session," which was obnoxious, as the judges would spend a day at the meeting venue, and many times, having to "pay" to be there - as it was often integrated with the fall/winter clinic.

Vinnie, you are a brave person. Do not bring the force of NBCA on yourself. Understand I agree with you and I have been to these trainings. We need all those who truly care about NCBA as a credible circuit to stand together for improvement. I will always state the party line until we have a new party. Sucks doesn't it.

[Powerhouse08]

brave person, good judge.

[crickett]

This thread is very interesting to me. Both as an NCBA board member and as a new drumline. This is the second year I have been doing winter drumline and still often feel a little lost. At this point I am not in a place to be able to suggest improvements to the sheets or the judging. However I do know a good tape when I hear one.

As a board member I strongly advocate for training. My position is the clinic and there is another person in charge of judges training. The winter guard judges took a unique approach this year and did an online training. They developed questions, viewed video, made tapes and wrote answers. This was reviewed by three current judges and the participants were given feedback. It is still being determined how effective it is.

The Winter Activities position is open for election this year. For a long time it has been help by a band director, one term it was a guard person. I can't recall if a percussion person has ever held the position. Having that input would be very valuable.

I am in agreement that there needs to be training and an update of the sheets. The changes in winter guard came from judges and instructors using the sheets and not being happy with them. It takes someone with knowledge to be able to make that change. Some of the guard judges worked with me to help get the change they felt the activity needed. I am willing to help others make improvements too.

[Psalm 56]

The judging in that circuit has always been off (SLIGHT EXAGGERATION). Theres been soooo many times in the past where i was soooo mad because one week my kids would score high, then the next week, after an even better show, our scores would dip (SO, WHAT DID YOU DO TO RELIEVE YOU BEING UPSET?). Ive never been happy with the judging in NCBA and honestly am glad i dont have a group there anymore. My advice: switch circuits (I WOULD HAVE LOVED TO HAVE HAD YOUR INPUT AT THE MEETINGS TO HELP "US" IMPROVE.). I know it might not be an option, but it should seriously be considered.

Unfortunately there are many with this same opinion. Switching is just not very practical. Get involved and work from within (sounds good).

Really agree "GET INVOLVED AND WORK FROM WITHIN (sounds good)." My analogy is - people who will not help make the public school in their neighborhood better...they simply put their child in the local independent school or home school.

It is time for us who are disgruntled to speak up and deal with the ramifications of speaking up. I got one for y'all...how can a "MIDDLE SCHOOL NOVICE PERCUSSION GROUP" score an 81 and not be bumped up? (At least I haven't been informed of us being bumped up) Yet, I am not switching ciruits. I was there in the beginning of NCBA and I want to leave at the end of NCBA - which probably will be the end of my career!! I believe in the foundation of NCBA. Not that I don't believe in other associations. I just believe in the FOUNDATION of NCBA. We probably have added one too many "rooms" to the foundation of NCBA which is leading to some cracks in the foundation.

NCBA is just like any organization - highs and lows. We need to regroup and make improvements. I think there are some really interesting facts on this "thread" ... the drastic differences of scores between the two sites on the same day is a VERY GOOD FACT. A middle school novice group receiving an 81 FOR A NOVICE SCORE and not being bumped up is an interesting fact.

Bottom line....don't leave NCBA thinking that the next circuit you go to is going to be problem free. Help make NCBA better!! We need your energy. We need your comments. Someone is going to listen. What is unfortunate? ... some people think that leaving is going to make those in charge listen. NOT GONNA HAPPEN. You leaving just makes the silence louder.

To vote....attend NCBA meetings. Say "no to proxy voting." Just an idea.

Just wanted to re-send this 'message' to the world. It's time for us to PUT UP or SHUT UP. There is no doubt there are people who are unhappy. Yet, in this TECHNOLOGICAL WORLD it is easier for ALL OF US (somewhat the younger folks) to sit at a keyboard and look at a screen then to sit acrosss an angry or frustrated person and exchange opinions, facts and/or feelings. GET IT DONE. We are possibly at a crucial time in NCBA history. Not crucial like the old days of the U.S. /Soviet Union. But to the equivalent in our little part of the world. I attempted to do my part by running for an office. I will attempt that again. I will have to do a better job convincing all those with three or more proxy votes to give me a chance. Lovin' this topic!!!

[gcarrasco]

Here is a post from Danceswithwood explaining the NCBA reasoning for scoring irregularities in colorguard.

NCBA guards score high in early season because they can. NCBA purposely does not track growth. One of their main tenents is that every contest is a separate and unrelated event. A blank slate. A brand new day. There is then no reason to reserve the 90 for champs. A guard can score a 90 in week 1, an 88 in week 2, a 92 in week 3, etc based on that performance that day. There is no tracking of scores week to week and judges do not receive, nor are they allowed to collect, recaps. That's vastly different from WGI's tenent of not only recognizing and rewarding growth from week to week but also analyzing recaps and following regionals nationwide and the scoring there.

Another reason the scores are driven up is that NCBA scores on a more linear basis than does WGI and has very little overlap between classes. You would quickly run out of numbers and/or have artificially decreased spreads in a big NCBA show if you did not use all the numbers that were available to you as a judge.

Take a look at the criteria in either circuit and you'll be surprised to find that there are far more similarities than differences. The difference is really in the numbers management and the tracking, or not tracking of growth. Tastes great, less filling. The two circuits are different by design.

In terms of quality I think what you're getting at is that the best of NCBA is equivalent to a typical SA or SAA guard in CCGC. Agreed but what does that matter? I think we need to realize we're talking about CCGC here. It's a bit atypical even among WGI circuits as it has churned out champions year after year. We are blessed to live in this wonderful colorguard bubble called Northern California full of retired WGI judges and gold medalists that up the ante year after year. It makes us lucky, lucky spectators but CCGC is not necessarily a reasonable yardstick by which to measure the quality of NCBA's competing guards.

NCBA gives the really young colorguards and newbie instructors a competitive opportunity and a place to grow that's not offered elsewhere in NorCal. Their Novice classes are an example of that. It's not unusual to see a unit "graduate" from NCBA into a WGI circuit. When you think about it, both circuits serve their own unique purpose in NorCal.

There are units and judges who are fluidly making the necessary adjustments that allow them to compete/work in both circuits within the same season. Maybe the fans can also embrace the difference and just enjoy the show.

[JenKozy]

"The Winter Activities position is open for election this year. For a long time it has been help by a band director, one term it was a guard person. I can't recall if a percussion person has ever held the position. Having that input would be very valuable."


Just a bit of food for thought. There was a percussion judge/band director that ran for this position this year... and lost the position to a band director. Become a member, get to a meeting and VOTE people.

As for the guard judges training, that's great that they tried. However, the numbers management on the guard sheets have been just as bad, if not worse, as previous years. I want to know if ALL of the judges did this 'training'? Because if ALL of the judges participated, then I, as an instructor looking at the sheets and numbers, am not seeing anything different. I still feel there are some judges that should not be judging. (This is coming off of an judges eval that I am currently working on sending out.)

[vinnieangelo]

Just a bit of food for thought. There was a percussion judge/band director that ran for this position this year... and lost the position to a band director. Become a member, get to a meeting and VOTE people.

Jen, who might you be speaking of????

In any event, I believe “that person you speak of” would serve as a great point person for the winter activities (or at the very least, split up the point person for guard and percussion so those activities can be more centrally localized, with the coordinators not having to spread themselves so thin).

George, I agree with the post you added by danceswithwood (also, I have judged with her many times in WBA, and agree with many of her points regarding the numbers system of WGI vs. NCBA). Also, I have always appreciated the passion and experience you bring to the activity.

My overall thought is this:

1). New sheets without clear judges training will just be another numbers management disaster.

2). Judges training sessions without new sheets will end up being a waste of time.

Therefore, we need to look at new sheets and incorporate a judges training that will actually serve a purpose.

[twinmomma]

As a judge, I will argue that too often groups place way too much importance on the bottom line score when complaining about judging and not enough time looking at individual caption scores, box placement, and ordinals. The difference between an 88 and an 82 means nothing relative to the individual box scores and placement by individual judges. THAT'S what you need to look at.

In addition, was a particular judge consistent within his/her caption throughout the competition? Comparing scores at individual competitions is MUCH less important than box placement. But if you do, look at whether two equipment (colorguard) judges place the same group box 3? Yes. That's more telling than the difference between 5 points in individual caption score.

With respect to colorguard, (not sure if it's the same for Percussion), also note the criteria is DIFFERENT for the High school Novice A/B classes than the Int/Adv/Sch/Open. Therefore it is possible for a Novice B guard to outscore an Advanced guard, because the criteria is different. Again, when making complaints about judging, base it not on the score, but the criteria and the comments.

Do I believe that judges need training, to work for consistency, to reward like efforts with like scores? ABSOLUTELY. But I believe in my heart that the relationship between judges and instructors need not be an antagonistic one, but rather a partnership designed to further the successes of the students.

[gcarrasco]

"Just wanted to re-send this 'message' to the world. It's time for us to PUT UP or SHUT UP. There is no doubt there are people who are unhappy. Yet, in this TECHNOLOGICAL WORLD it is easier for ALL OF US (somewhat the younger folks) to sit at a keyboard and look at a screen then to sit acrosss an angry or frustrated person and exchange opinions, facts and/or feelings. GET IT DONE. We are possibly at a crucial time in NCBA history. Not crucial like the old days of the U.S. /Soviet Union. But to the equivalent in our little part of the world. I attempted to do my part by running for an office. I will attempt that again. I will have to do a better job convincing all those with three or more proxy votes to give me a chance. Lovin' this topic!!!"


I feel like I am doing something right now. We are not the only people reading this thread. Lots of members and non-members as well as "the powers that be" will be taking notes(i hope) and will be empowered to attend and act at the next meeting. And if you are out there, SPEAK UP! Let us know what you think!

[Psalm 56]

So, all of us who have been eloquently writing our opinions...JUNE 5TH, 2010 at Foothill High School will be a fantastic time to let our NCBA board know we want to see some plan to improve the current situation with adjudicating and then act on that plan.

Just a thought..it is interesting to NOT SEE the same sort of posts (quantity / quailty) about other associations' woes about the same topic. I wonder why?! Just a question...

Again, NCBA is at a crossroads. There are several retired band directors on the board that will eventually want to enjoy their retirement. With change of leadership comes some anxiety. I believe we are feeling some anxiety.

[vinnieangelo]

Honestly, Paul, the reason that the same things are not being said about other indoor organizations is because most of the other circuits in California are rather progressive in terms of adapting and adjusting to current trends.

Also, every other circuit I work in (and I am pretty much judging in all circuits other than the LA organizations…however, I do have friends there, and speak with them on a regular basis about it), attempt to make the significant changes from year to year in order to continually better themselves. Whereas the NCBA fights tooth and nail to maintain the “status quo.”

Honestly, my attendance at the general membership meetings has usually been spotty. A lot of this is because when I have brought up ideas to the “higher ups” (which is something I am constantly doing), I am regularly getting shot down. If there is a consistent amount of resistance from board members in private conversation, one would assume that the same resistance would be carried through in the public meetings.

If anything, I believe a task force needs to be assembled to look at the state of the winter percussion situation. It should include judges, instructors, and band directors (but honestly, it should mainly be input from the judges and instructors, as they are the ones who have the direct contact and input into the activity).

My .02

[Psalm 56]

Honestly, Paul, the reason that the same things are not being said about other indoor organizations is because most of the other circuits in California are rather progressive in terms of adapting and adjusting to current trends. MY POINT EXACTLY BY ASKING THE QUESTION OF HOW COME WE ARE NOT READING THE SAME QUESTION IN RELEVANCE TO OTHER ASSOCIATIONS.

Also, every other circuit I work in (and I am pretty much judging in all circuits other than the LA organizations…however, I do have friends there, and speak with them on a regular basis about it), attempt to make the significant changes from year to year in order to continually better themselves. Whereas the NCBA fights tooth and nail to maintain the “status quo.” From Latin status ("state") + quō ("in which") , the ablative of quī ("which"). From the Latin stātus quō ante bellum erat (“‘the way things were before the war’”) Love the phrase "status quo." Interesting you would choose the word "fights."

Honestly, my attendance at the general membership meetings has usually been spotty. A lot of this is because when I have brought up ideas to the “higher ups” (which is something I am constantly doing), I am regularly getting shot down. If there is a consistent amount of resistance from board members in private conversation, one would assume that the same resistance would be carried through in the public meetings. ON A MUCH "GREATER" POINT, THANK GOODNESS PEOPLE WHO WERE GETTING SHOT DOWN DID NOT GIVE UP THEIR FIGHT IN GETTING US closer TO EQUAL RIGHTS. YOU NEED TO KEEP UP YOUR FIGHT.

If anything, I believe a task force needs to be assembled to look at the state of the winter percussion situation. It should include judges, instructors, and band directors (but honestly, it should mainly be input from the judges and instructors, as they are the ones who have the direct contact and input into the activity). SLIGHT DISAGREEMENT ABOUT THIS LAST PART OF YOUR QUOTE. BAND DIRECTORS ARE SPONSORING OR advising MANY OF THESE PERCUSSION ENSEMBLES. THERE ARE NO INDEPENDENT ENSEMBLES. SO, I DO THINK BAND DIRECTORS NEED TO BE EQUALLY INVOLVED. LET US REMEMBER THERE WAS A TRIANGLE OF NCBA MEMBERSHIP : TEACHERS, STUDENTS, PARENTS. We are missing parental involvement in NCBA. The students are kind of lost as well. I think we need to go to a square and add instructors

My .02

two cents is CHANGE which we need.

[olledowerdna]

Best idea yet Vinnie!

[vinnieangelo]

To tell a funny Andrew Odello story….

When Andrew first joined the Blue Devils B (I think it was 2002 or 2003) he played top Bass Drum. This kid COULD NOT mark time to save his life!!! I seriously thought he was marching paradiddles with his feet! Anyway, a few years later and the kid is on the “Blue Devils A” snare line!

The moral of the story (and an analogy for the current NCBA issue): even if something is looking ugly at the moment, it does not mean it cant blossom into something awesome!

[gcarrasco]

"The moral of the story (and an analogy for the current NCBA issue): even if something is looking ugly at the moment, it does not mean it cant blossom into something awesome!"


Not if the fertillizer is old. All said thus far is dependend on a desire to change, As long as the powers that be remain the same so will the association.