NCBA Judging

[mrbrianplowman]

I agree with a lot that I have read. NCBA has progressed a lot over the years and have encouraged the growth of many fine individuals and groups. I can say that for myself and many of you as well. The sheets were re vamped years back and were a welcomed improvement.

Continuing these types of discussions will draw us closer together as an organization. Formal judge training would be great. Continuing mandatory yearly "clinic and discussion" sessions will help us fulfill our obligation to provide the best adjudicating.

There are individual requirements of staying educated that we all can be part of. Lot's of resources and video streaming is out there. This alone is not the answer. Having taken a temporary leave from drum line teaching 2 years ago has led me to strive to stay current. My own obligation as an educator depends on staying involved as a performer and judge.

I agree that box scores need to match the performance. Where a group lies within the box may vary depending on how strong or weak a group is within the box. As a judge, performer, director or staff member, I need to be able to know where my group lies within each box so I can make adjustments and improve. It is important to see consistency from show to show. Especially on the same day.

Scores tend to vary sometimes because of the purity of the scoring. We don't carry around last week’s scores to use as reference. I give it a fresh read every time. It is my hope that as deserved, improvement is shown in my scoring. That being said, Vinnie may be a few points lower or higher in the same caption on the same day. 7 points of difference would be a bit difficult to explain!

I'm encouraged that we can collectively come up with a solution without bashing the organization, judging body, or individuals. As we strive for the quest of bettering ourselves, so will our students be bettered.

[olledowerdna]

I completely agree. By no means was this intended to bash NCBA. Without NCBA, then almost 100% of marching music programs in the bay area would vanish.

I hope that bringing this issue up may have sparked some interest in making changes for the future.

[gcarrasco]

The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws (NCBA Rules)

A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. (nature of competition)


Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. (Reason for changing rules)
- Ayn Rand

Just a few words to think about.

[supermutant]

The problem is, when the NCBA would have "required training meetings" (about 8-10 years ago), there would actually be decent attendance...with little to nothing happening at the meeting.

Regular training would be very effective, but it HAS to be worth the while of those in attendance.

A Parade Showmanship clinic at a Nor-Cal event several years ago stands out as one of the best training events that I have seen. Thank you Greg Christiansen.

[danceswithwood]

First to Vinnie --- thanks for the support dude. I knew you were one of the good guys

And you are absolutely right. The status quo is sacred and is THE most important concern of the current leadership.

While training would be wonderful, neither it or the judges are the crux of the problem.

I spent a couple of years on the winterguard committee and we were able to accomplish quite a lot but not nearly what we'd hoped we could. We did get new sheets, updated criteria, introductory judge's training (where none had existed previously) but making change from within was a lot like kicking a rock uphill everyday in bare feet. IMO, it will continue to be hard until some of the current leadership retires. Reason 1: They support allowing hosting band directors choosing their own judges. Reason 2: There is no teeth to the "mandatory" in "mandatory training". People who don't participate are still on the active judge's list. Reason 3: There's no position to head up training. Two years in a row I proposed that an "Education Coordinator" be added under the umbrella of the "Judge's Coordinator". I did everthing I was asked to do (more than once) wrote up a proposal and outlined the position. The idea had a lot of support from the membership. Even so, I have yet to see it even make it onto an agenda much less make it to a vote. IMO, an Education Coordinator is uber important to an overall training program. I even ran for VP of winter activities but lost to a band director. The message finally sank in for me. The leadership was not ready for the changes "we" were ready for ... and I stopped pushing. The effort is ongoing on the colorguard side and a new judge's training packet was introduced this season by the current winterguard committee.

I'm glad to see so much renewed interest and fresh troops.

Jojo Dangerfield
aka "danceswithwood"

.

[JCYS]

This has been a great discussion. Some of it relevant, some not. I have a statement as to what I think NCBA should do....agree or disagree...

1. Term limits. No one should hold a position more than 4 years, or be on the board in total more than 8.
2. One school, One vote. This is a constitutional change. We tried this some years ago and found it against the current constitution. That can be changed. The fee structure would be changed accordingly. NO proxy voting except in elections (where I THINK it is required by state law for corporations....
3. Every activity should have its own "steering committee." ESPECIALLY Winter guard, winter percussion, and field show. I think the WG/WP should be spun off into its own semi-autonomous unit..with a committee that sees to judging sheets, criteria, have its own judges coordinator who also sets up judges training, and its own treasurer under the direction of the VP of Winter Activities. Same for percussion. That way the people involved in the activity lead it. If you want to regain the respect of the people this absolutely MUST be done in WG, WP, and Field show.
4. There needs to be a "numbers manager" in all activities who keeps an eye on the judges numbers and is in charge of spotting and fixing judges problems along with the judges coordinator. And those "fixes" cannot wait till the end of the season!!!
5. The best people for the job must be judging. Contest hosts don't get to request. IE, if I'm a parade director, I don't want someone who's parade band never broke a 90.0 to be judging me.
6. Judges training must be twice a year and must be led by the committee of that area...NO MORE ROUND ROBIN discussions where we all talk about what WE think a caption means and we all leave judging the same we always did. SOMEONE must be the "Guru" who tells us what we are looking for and what score it gets. Otherwise we will continue to have this terrible ranking problem.
7. It was a laudable idea to make the NCBA a "run by the general membership" type deal...unfortunately it's like a democracy where everyone gets to vote on every little detail and nothing gets done. The committees need to move the activity and the GM doesn't get to fight it out over everything. It has caused stagnation. Lets let the top people run their portion of the NCBA.

That is what I think would be a great step...

[twinmomma]

Oooh I have to strongly disagree with #5. Ok, wait, I don't disagree that the best people need to be judging. But I disagree with the criteria you offered. Just because someone had a program that either couldn't attract the talent or afford to pay 10 guard instructors and techs to get a 90 doesn't mean that same person can't recognize and reward it when he or she sees it.

I had a novice group at one time. Does that mean I'm not qualified to judge an Open guard? What about my understanding of the activity as a whole? My education? My experience on the job? Does that mean that people who've only performed with and coached Open groups can't adequately assess the needs and limitations of a Novice group?

I think deciding who is the "best person" for the judging job is MUCH more multi faceted than who came from the biggest guns.

I do agree with everything else you've said however...

Edited to add I totally agree that show hosts should NOT be able to request judges...

[JenKozy]

I agree with Twinmomma. It falls the other direction as well. Judges, IMHO, who have not instructed, designed or performed in shows in over fifteen years and who do not have training, IMHO, should not be judging. The world of winter guard and winter percussion are LIGHT years ahead of where they were even five years ago. We need judges who have kept their fingers on the pulse of our activity. As an instructor, I am constantly educating myself on the progression of this activity, and I would hope that the judges who are judging my groups are doing the same.

I supported JoJo's education proposal each time she has tried to bring it forth at meetings. I think Jeff and JoJo have the right ideas. We just need people to get in there and get this job done. I love NCBA. I like how MOST shows are run and the quality of shows that the circuit puts out. But one can only be a stick in the mud for so long until you are cemented there.

[Psalm 56]

Gonna be a great JUNE 5TH, 2010 meeting at Foothill High School. Looking forward to all of us who have participated in this topic bringing your points to the board. There are some really good thoughts and some thoughts that the board will just love to 'debate.' Should be highly entertaining meeting.

Get your camera ready to post JUNE 5TH, 2010 NCBA meetingvideo on YOU TUBE. Just a joke...calm down...

GO TO THE MEETING AND EXPRESS YOUR OPINION.

To vote....attend the NCBA meetings. Say "no to proxy voting." Just an idea.

[twinmomma]

Jen,
I agree with you as long as you keep the caveat in there "or who have had training". A judge who is judging every year, multiple events, staying up on training, does not have to be teaching a guard to be a value to the activity. Coaching does not automatically qualify you to be a good judge.

Edited to add that good coaches don't always make good judges and good judges don't always make good coaches. And that's ok, AS LONG as the training is there to keep everyone on the same page regarding expectations.

[gcarrasco]

I am an Olympic Certified womens fast-pitch umpire. I am requied to do a Regional Training every year and a National School every five years. I coached high school for two years so you can't really say I did lots of coaching. If I want to go to a National Championship I must train and stay on top of all rule changes and mechanics. I will be attending my fifth national this summer. I'm sure many of you folks need to do the same if you are involved in a competetive activity. WHY NOT NCBA JUDGES?

[danceswithwood]

I've suggested this a couple of times .... ah well ... but since we're talking about staying current

For all the other circuits I judge in (outside of NCBA), I have a judge's pass that allows me not only to get into whatever contest I've been lucky enough to be invited to judge, but that also gets me into ANY contest in that circuit during that season. It's a huge educational opportunity to sit in the judge's area while watching and listening ... and it's free! You're not even taking up a paid seat.

I think it would be nice if NCBA issued passes to their active judges and their apprentice judges and gave them this opportunity to educate themselves.


.

[Edited to fix the gibberish in that last sentence ]

[gcarrasco]

Good idea JoJo, I have one of those for softball. Well, Band Directors, Show Sponsors, Band Boosters speak up it's your dime.

[gcarrasco]

"TIME LIMITATIONS:

Junior High: minimum 2 minutes/maximum 7-1/2 minutes

High School: minimum 3 minutes/maximum 7-1/2 minutes

The timing begins when the music starts or with the first movement. Timing ends with the obvious conclusion of the show. The equipment crew is not included in the timing of the show. All units will have a total of 10 minutes to set up perform and clear the floor."
"PENALTIES:

1. There will be a 1-point penalty for each 30 seconds of overtime/undertime."

SORRY Folks I am about to throw another wrench in the works. At the Granada percussion comp Jesse Bethal took a 1-point penalty for being 25 seconds overtime. I am not disputing the overtime, they were over. My concern is the penalty effect of the rule. After 10 min. " There will be a 1-point penalty for each 30 seconds of overtime..."
This means ,if read correctly, that a drumline could time out at 10min.29seconds and Not TAKE A PENALTY. Take a moment and digest this. After 10min. a 1-point for every 30 SECONDS overtime (not 25 like Bethal) 30 SECONDS.

Now read the winterguard timing rule.
PENALTIES:

All timing penalties shall be 0.1 of a point per 5 seconds or fraction thereof. All boundary and standard equipment penalties shall be of 0.1 of a point per offense. NOTICE "...0.1 of a point per 5 seconds OR FRACTION THEREOF..."
That pretty much covers it.

[Psalm 56]

"TIME LIMITATIONS:

Junior High: minimum 2 minutes/maximum 7-1/2 minutes

High School: minimum 3 minutes/maximum 7-1/2 minutes

The timing begins when the music starts or with the first movement. Timing ends with the obvious conclusion of the show. The equipment crew is not included in the timing of the show. All units will have a total of 10 minutes to set up perform and clear the floor."
"PENALTIES:

1. There will be a 1-point penalty for each 30 seconds of overtime/undertime."

SORRY Folks I am about to throw another wrench in the works. At the Granada percussion comp Jesse Bethal took a 1-point penalty for being 25 seconds overtime. I am not disputing the overtime, they were over. My concern is the penalty effect of the rule. After 10 min. " There will be a 1-point penalty for each 30 seconds of overtime..."
This means ,if read correctly, that a drumline could time out at 10min.29seconds and Not TAKE A PENALTY. Take a moment and digest this. After 10min. a 1-point for every 30 SECONDS overtime (not 25 like Bethal) 30 SECONDS.

Now read the winterguard timing rule.
PENALTIES:

All timing penalties shall be 0.1 of a point per 5 seconds or fraction thereof. All boundary and standard equipment penalties shall be of 0.1 of a point per offense. NOTICE "...0.1 of a point per 5 seconds OR FRACTION THEREOF..."
That pretty much covers it.

Another interesting fact to bring up at the June 5, 2010 NCBA meeting at Foothill High School . Looking forward to the presentation of this fact and the response from the board. All in all KIND OF A DIFFERENT TOPIC, tangent if you will...LIVERMORE HS & GRANADA HS did a nice job running their shows. Thank you Dean and Tom.

To vote...attend the NCBA meetings and say "no to proxy voting." Just an idea.