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 Post subject: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:41 am 
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http://www.ncbaonline.org/winter_activi ... o_2010.pdf

http://www.ncbaonline.org/winter_activi ... d_2010.pdf

If you look at these recaps from the same day, the scores are ridiculously far off from eachother.

Take a look at the average scores for "Open Percussion" at the Armijo show. Almost every group is into the 90s, with Foothill at an 89.

NOW! Look at the night show at Fairfield. The scores a substantially lower than the Armijo show! How is it possible for a group to drop from an 89 to an 82 in just a couple of hours? (Foothill)

This was the case for many groups, and makes me very disappointed at how inconsistent the judging is.

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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:17 am 
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The judging in that circuit has always been off. Theres been soooo many times in the past where i was soooo mad because one week my kids would score high, then the next week, after an even better show, our scores would dip. Ive never been happy with the judging in NCBA and honestly am glad i dont have a group there anymore. My advice: switch circuits. I know it might not be an option, but it should seriously be considered.


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:01 am 
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Powerhouse08 wrote:
The judging in that circuit has always been off. Theres been soooo many times in the past where i was soooo mad because one week my kids would score high, then the next week, after an even better show, our scores would dip. Ive never been happy with the judging in NCBA and honestly am glad i dont have a group there anymore. My advice: switch circuits. I know it might not be an option, but it should seriously be considered.



Unfortunately there are many with this same opinion. Switching is just not very practical. Get involved and work from within (sounds good).


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:09 pm 
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I live on the other coast now, so it's been a while since I've been around NCBA. So from an outsider's perspective...

Glancing at the recaps, I wonder if the wording on the judging sheets makes it clear which box to score a unit in, assuming NCBA uses a box 1/2/3/4/5 system like WGI and other circuits. If the wording is clear and the judges adhere to it, that should help some with scoring consistency.

Clear rubrics and scoring ranges for each box on the sheet should also help to define point spreads within subcaptions. I hate picking on a judge, but I'll use the "WP-1" judge from Armijo as an example. The scores he handed out for "Excel" in the HS Open division are 408, 440, 442, 443, 444, 445, 448. Six out of seven groups within eight points on a 500-point scale. Excluding the 408, was everyone's execution really within 1.6% of every other group?

In all fairness, I don't know the sheets, the judge, or the groups. They really could be that close, but the odds are against it. If they're not as close as the numbers would indicate, someone needs to look at why. Are the sheets the problem, or do we have a problem following them?

As for getting upset about scores from one show to the next, don't fall into that trap! If I've learned anything about scoring over the years (no, not that kind of scoring), it's that the ordinal placements and spreads are a much more accurate gauge than the overall number. To use DCI scores as an example, I wouldn't have given the Blue Devils a 99.05 at finals last season since nobody was within a point of perfection in my opinion. But when I look at the ordinal placements and spreads in each caption, I think they're generally reasonable.

Sometimes I'm actually happy to see score ranges that are different between judges because I know we're not getting slotted according to other nights' performances. We're getting the score the judge thinks we earned instead of the score the judge thinks we expect.

Going off on just a little bit of a tangent... Why are the captions labeled differently on the two recap sheets if this is the same circuit? It's not hard to deduce that "Vocab" probably equates to "Composition" and "Excel" is likely the same as "Performance", but can we have a little consistency to remove any doubt?

...and to go completely off-topic, Andrew: Remember the corps' open rehearsal in Buffalo last season? I brought some kids from the line I'm teaching nowadays and I had fun following you around the field for a while that afternoon. (Small world, huh?)


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:24 pm 
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As someone who has judged in 5 different winter percussion circuits this year (as I have the past few years), I can say that using the NCBA sheets are by far the most difficult, due to the layout they have adopted. However, to give credit, the current system is MUCH better than what was formerly there. The problem is though, that nothing has changed in the past 8 (or so) years.

Because “all groups” are judged on a single sheet (and because of the lack of criteria given), the scores are somewhat arbitrary. There is no distinction between spreads, and the “keywords” used for each box are so ambiguous and relative, one can use almost any justification they want for placing a number. With that being the case, I have always been more concerned with the rankings than the ratings at NCBA shows.

An overhaul of the current sheets would be a great move for the circuit! (and NO, that does not mean that the NCBA has to adopt the WGI system). Due to the great work that the instructors and kids have done over the past few years, it seems as though the performing groups have developed and evolved faster than the sheets have. This seems to serve as a “good problem” to have, but none the less, it is still very problematic.


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:27 pm 
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gcarrasco wrote:
Powerhouse08 wrote:
The judging in that circuit has always been off (SLIGHT EXAGGERATION). Theres been soooo many times in the past where i was soooo mad because one week my kids would score high, then the next week, after an even better show, our scores would dip (SO, WHAT DID YOU DO TO RELIEVE YOU BEING UPSET?). Ive never been happy with the judging in NCBA and honestly am glad i dont have a group there anymore. My advice: switch circuits (I WOULD HAVE LOVED TO HAVE HAD YOUR INPUT AT THE MEETINGS TO HELP "US" IMPROVE.). I know it might not be an option, but it should seriously be considered.



Unfortunately there are many with this same opinion. Switching is just not very practical. Get involved and work from within (sounds good).


Really agree "GET INVOLVED AND WORK FROM WITHIN (sounds good)." My analogy is - people who will not help make the public school in their neighborhood better...they simply put their child in the local independent school or home school.

It is time for us who are disgruntled to speak up and deal with the ramifications of speaking up. I got one for y'all...how can a "MIDDLE SCHOOL NOVICE PERCUSSION GROUP" score an 81 and not be bumped up? (At least I haven't been informed of us being bumped up) Yet, I am not switching ciruits. I was there in the beginning of NCBA and I want to leave at the end of NCBA - which probably will be the end of my career!! I believe in the foundation of NCBA. Not that I don't believe in other associations. I just believe in the FOUNDATION of NCBA. We probably have added one too many "rooms" to the foundation of NCBA which is leading to some cracks in the foundation.

NCBA is just like any organization - highs and lows. We need to regroup and make improvements. I think there are some really interesting facts on this "thread" ... the drastic differences of scores between the two sites on the same day is a VERY GOOD FACT. A middle school novice group receiving an 81 FOR A NOVICE SCORE and not being bumped up is an interesting fact.

Bottom line....don't leave NCBA thinking that the next circuit you go to is going to be problem free. Help make NCBA better!! We need your energy. We need your comments. Someone is going to listen. What is unfortunate? ... some people think that leaving is going to make those in charge listen. NOT GONNA HAPPEN. You leaving just makes the silence louder.

To vote....attend NCBA meetings. Say "no to proxy voting." Just an idea.


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:32 pm 
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vinnieangelo wrote:
Due to the great work that the instructors and kids have done over the past few years, it seems as though the performing groups have developed and evolved faster than the sheets have. This seems to serve as a “good problem” to have, but none the less, it is still very problematic.

EXCELLENT point. I can remember 15-20 years ago when there were only a few decent lines in the NCBA. But in the last ten years, last five especially, there are a LOT of groups in that circuit getting better, and better, and better.


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:01 pm 
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Hostrauser wrote:
I can remember 15-20 years ago when there were only a few decent lines in the NCBA.


Back then, I believe the only percussion competitions hosted by the NCBA were the percussion zones on a parade route. The only NCBA line I know of that did any winter performances back then was Hogan, who played their first winter show at Concord High School in 1992 and that was very much a "duck out of water" kind of experience. NCBA schools have come a looooong way since then.


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:20 pm 
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Actually, everytime my group recieved horrible scores, we did talk with the judges. The remarks given on the tapes were highly inaccurate with what appreard on the actual score sheets and always left me scratching MY head, as well as my students doing the same. Now, the level of the groups is not in question. The drumlines that compete in that circuit are very talented. Vallejo, Benicia, Fairfield to name a few, have proven themselves in other divisions. THATS not the problem, the JUDGING is the problem. The first comment in this thread isnt the first i ever heard about inconsistent scoring. Ive done NCBA since my days in high school and even noticed the problems back then. All in all, NCBA is stuck in the past. And it should be no surprise to anyone that this has been a problem for a veeery long time, so to say something to the effect that "you should have said something at one of our meetings" makes it seem like to you, this is the first time anyone has ever spoken out about this problem. Which goes to show how much they DONT change things


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:30 pm 
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I enjoy reading posts from impassioned young people who truly care about pageantry and want to see the fairest possible outcomes so someone being "alittle upset" does not bother me. Keep posting and show that passion.


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:43 pm 
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While I do agree that there needs to be a stronger consistency (and dare I say….TRAINING!) for the NCBA judging community, I do believe that a major part of the problem is with the sheets. For instance:

I will often judge with Gavin Bearing at NCBA shows, as well as in other circuits (CCGC, Modesto, etc). While we might be spot on numerically in those other circuits, we might be worlds apart in NCBA-land. This is because those “other circuits” have adopted sheets that have very specific criteria, allowing the judge to be as exact as possible with their numbers.

Now to point out the “pink-elephant” in the room…YES, those other circuits are using WGI sheets. But the magic is not in the “WGI” logo (and I am hardly suggesting that NCBA needs to adopt the WGI sheets in order to be successful). Rather it is in the refined criteria and method by which we are to adjudicate and manage our numbers on the WGI sheet that makes it a consistent adjudication process.

Therefore, as someone who has been an instructor AND judge in the NCBA, I like Andrew, can understand the frustrations that come when numbers seem to have a complete pendulum swing within the course of hours. However, this in part, is a result of the sheets themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:05 pm 
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OPPS, the "T" word. "T" means money, money we don"t have and there is no incentive to pay for "T" . And who will "T", old school or new wave? Remember NCBA members are OLD band directors. (including me)


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:43 pm 
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vinnieangelo wrote:
I will often judge with Gavin Bering at NCBA shows, as well as in other circuits (CCGC, Modesto, etc)...


So the judges' box is where we put former Amador Valley instructors out to pasture? :nenr:


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:36 pm 
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gcarrasco wrote:
OPPS, the "T" word. "T" means money, money we don"t have and there is no incentive to pay for "T" . And who will "T", old school or new wave? Remember NCBA members are OLD band directors. (including me)



Haha, nice, George!

Actually, training (also known as the aforementioned "T" word), takes minimal money. The problem is, when the NCBA would have "required training meetings" (about 8-10 years ago), there would actually be decent attendance...with little to nothing happening at the meeting. Actually, it turned more into a "hang out session," which was obnoxious, as the judges would spend a day at the meeting venue, and many times, having to "pay" to be there - as it was often integrated with the fall/winter clinic.

Regular training would be very effective, but it HAS to be worth the while of those in attendance.

Also, I am speaking specifically to the training of the percussion judging community, and not that of the rest of the circuit (color guard, fall-band, etc). I have no knowledge of the "goings on" in the other aspects of the circuit.


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 Post subject: Re: NCBA Judging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:38 pm 
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SkyDog wrote:
vinnieangelo wrote:
I will often judge with Gavin Bering at NCBA shows, as well as in other circuits (CCGC, Modesto, etc)...


So the judges' box is where we put former Amador Valley instructors out to pasture? :nenr:



☺ very observant!

It was great last year when I did a CCGC show AT Amador Valley. The panel was: Vinnie Angelo, Gavin Bearing, Brian Aguilar (all former AVHS staff members).


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