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 Post subject: Re: WGI Prop 10...
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 8:22 pm 
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its called sarcasm... or is it sarkasum.... or sarckazum.

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 Post subject: Re: WGI Prop 10...
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 9:48 am 
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I think WGI blew it big time with this one. IW on the guard side has had no age out for years and they are doing just fine. It's a shame as alot of doors could have been opened with prop 10 passing.

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 Post subject: Re: WGI Prop 10...
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 10:26 pm 
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pittech wrote:
I think WGI blew it big time with this one. IW on the guard side has had no age out for years and they are doing just fine. It's a shame as alot of doors could have been opened with prop 10 passing.



Well, it lost 39-2, so at least they are pretty unanimous in the matter.


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 Post subject: Re: WGI Prop 10...
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 11:00 am 
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It is extremly ignorant to dismiss such a large percentage of the leaders of the activity as "blowing it."
I would say I question your information on how the color guard is doing fine. Seems like a lot of top end guards come and go consistently.
You mention all these doors that could have been opened, but have you even thought of all the doors that will close to the younger next generation of players?

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 Post subject: Re: WGI Prop 10...
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 6:58 am 
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As of right now, if someone ages out and still wants to march, they can go over seas and march with Aimachi since there is no age-out limit for groups outside of the US. Some already have and I'm willing to bet even more will also.

I don't think they "blew it," I just wish they would take the plunge on making the change. It would bring up the level of the entire activity. And honestly, until that happens, Percussion IW will never be able to match up to what IW Guard...


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 Post subject: Re: WGI Prop 10...
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:43 am 
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Don't you wonder why the entire advisory board minus only two people disagree with you. These are the leaders of the activity, and there should be more respect towards them.
PIW is doing just fine, in fact it is doing better than ever! I would strongly disagree that the percussion doesn't already match up to the color guard.

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 Post subject: Re: WGI Prop 10...
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 9:01 am 
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I am not disrespecting anyone. As a fan, IW Guard is HANDS DOWN better than IW Percussion.

IW Percussion IS doing better than ever. But it is not going to match up to IW Guard until the "playing field" is level. Sorry to say...but what they are doing in Guard land is A-Mazing...

:wink:


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 Post subject: Re: WGI Prop 10...
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 10:58 am 
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8-ball wrote:
I am not disrespecting anyone. As a fan, IW Guard is HANDS DOWN better than IW Percussion.

IW Percussion IS doing better than ever. But it is not going to match up to IW Guard until the "playing field" is level. Sorry to say...but what they are doing in Guard land is A-Mazing...

:wink:


Apples and oranges. That is like saying football is doing way better then baseball!


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 Post subject: Re: WGI Prop 10...
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 1:00 pm 
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johnmapes wrote:
Don't you wonder why the entire advisory board minus only two people disagree with you.


I do honestly wonder why the advisory board made the decision. Are there notes regarding the meeting available to the public?

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 Post subject: Re: WGI Prop 10...
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 3:16 pm 
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ya, you cant really compare percussion and gaurd. ive worked both ends and i think percussion is better. at least for me.

and i think the leaders that voted on it pretty much made it loud and clear. maybe you can propose a different class. or just start your own circuit.

and aimachi is amazing and to make that trip from japan is incredible, but wen you watch rcc, rthym x, mcc, and pulse (this year), cant really compare. aimachi is very acrobatic and very fun to watch, but the level that some of the other competitiors are taking is amazing.

make a senior corp indoor.

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 Post subject: Re: WGI Prop 10...
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 6:58 am 
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johnmapes wrote:
Don't you wonder why the entire advisory board minus only two people disagree with you. These are the leaders of the activity, and there should be more respect towards them.
PIW is doing just fine, in fact it is doing better than ever! I would strongly disagree that the percussion doesn't already match up to the color guard.


No kidding: this was not a marginal win to barely shoot down the Prop. This was overwhelming, meaning Craig and whomever else was for this did not present a persuasive enough argument to sway people's minds.
And there is no doubt that PIW is incredible, and healthy as ever. One thing that a lot of young people tend to forget is the Percussion aspect of WGI is 15 years old, while WGI for guard is over thirty years old (trivia of the day: WGI started in 1978 with no scholastic class for guard; Percussion for WGI started in 1993 with no Independent class). The percussion activity has EXPLODED in a very short amount of time, while the guards have had a much longer period of time to "evolve." If someone wants to make the argument that the PIW groups are not "matching up" with the IW guards (though I would love to hear a detailed explanation of what that means: design wise, talent level wise, etc?), you can easily make a counter argument that PIW groups have had a much shorter 'life' than guards, and if you look at 2004 PIW Championships (the ten year mark), and compare it to 1987 (WGI's ten year mark for guard), I would bet it could be argued that PIW is comparable to the guards as far as evolution of both performance and design, if not surpassing.


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 Post subject: Re: WGI Prop 10...
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 4:25 pm 
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First off, to their credit this year, Pulse was GREAT! But if Aimachi was here, I'm sure they would have pulled off an upset of what you say they would have been surpassed by.

Next, if you can honestly watch the IW Guards and thing that Percussion is surpassing what they achieve with effect and design, then I want some of what you have.

I am a percussion person 100% and truly hope there is a day I can watch both and say, WOW percussion finally pulled off what guard does...

Rhythm X is "supposed" to be the best show ever in WGI History...but they didn't make me feel LIVE what IW guard made me feel watching the live webcast this year and in recent years.

Our side of the activity HAS come a long way and I hope it continues to evolve and improving each year our dedicated members take the floor.


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 Post subject: Re: WGI Prop 10...
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 5:12 pm 
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8-ball wrote:
First off, to their credit this year, Pulse was GREAT! But if Aimachi was here, I'm sure they would have pulled off an upset of what you say they would have been surpassed by.

Next, if you can honestly watch the IW Guards and thing that Percussion is surpassing what they achieve with effect and design, then I want some of what you have.

I am a percussion person 100% and truly hope there is a day I can watch both and say, WOW percussion finally pulled off what guard does...

Rhythm X is "supposed" to be the best show ever in WGI History...but they didn't make me feel LIVE what IW guard made me feel watching the live webcast this year and in recent years.

Our side of the activity HAS come a long way and I hope it continues to evolve and improving each year our dedicated members take the floor.


I will comment on a few things here:

1) I would have to agree with the people that have noticed that the vote wasn't even close. The Advisory Board members are the leaders and innovators of this activity. We need to trust their decision and reasoning. And maybe if you're concerned...email or call WGI and see if minutes from the meeting are available.

2) Keep in mind, the Advisory board is pretty much pioneering or creating this activity. It's still in it's infant stage. And many of those advisory board members are young (relatively) and extremely enthusiastic about seeing how far they can take this activity, constantly trying to innovate and take it to BOX SIX.

3) As my staff members and students will agree, I am a huge supporter of the indoor drumline activity and I love that it has come such a long way in such a short amount of time. But yes, I will agree that the design of the top WGI guards surpasses that of WGI drumlines. But you also have to understand that we are dealing with two different mediums of performance, two different palates of equipment to draw from (you can't have a kid carrying 50 lbs of drums running around doing back flips and throwing knives in the air) and also, very importantly, two different audiences.

4) Also, I'm not sure how to comment on Aimachi. They are amazing at what they do.....but I'm sure we can all agree that their take on indoor drumline is completely different than that of american drumlines. So i would not go so far to say their design is far better than our US WGI lines, i would just say it's different. Who knows, maybe they will be the innovators and all of our drumlines will follow suit having dancers, etc in their shows.

Regardless of what organization we are in, we have to trust the innovators and dedicated leaders of the activity to make the best decision possible. And at this point in time 39 of the top percussion instructors in the country made a decision and we should be able to accept and trust it.

For the people saying "they blew it" are probably not even considering the consequences if the board didn't "blow it".

1) (The biggest reason ever) You would drastically limit the number of students that would be able to drum after high school.

2) The easy response to that is "well, there would be more independent groups". and my answer is...no there wouldn't. Most of the quality instructors with the ability to run an independent ensemble are already spread waaaaay to thin. So there really isn't the personnel to start up a new independent group (well, a quality one anyway).

3) Related to #1: Turnover. If this prop had passed we would see independent groups that would have the same line-up for years and years and years. And we need to ask ourselves "at that point are we really educating?" We're not. We would get in the rut of building a winning machine, not an organization with an emphasis on education.

4) I am a firm believer that there is a time and a place for everything. In high school, kids should have certain experiences, out of high school they should have certain experiences, etc. I think by keeping the age limit, we are helping guide our students in their lives. If we let kids continue to march in a drumline, they may never open their eyes to all the other possibilities in the world. Experiences such as marching in a guard, drumline, corps, etc are all amazing, valid and highly recommended experiences....but i do not believe someone should march with the same group for 10 years.

Regardless of their reasoning...I trust that the advisory board made the best decision for the activity.


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 Post subject: Re: WGI Prop 10...
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 9:37 pm 
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So are you saying the IW Guards are no longer educational and are "winning machines?"

And there were what, 27 IW Guards this year...34 IO and 62 IA Guards? So why did it work for them? How on earth would the rule limit the amount of graduates that get into an Independent line??? What basis do you justify that off of?

There was a record amount of Independent lines this year...I DOUBT anyone would not be able to find a place to march.

And there have been more and more lines with guards and such in their shows...Dartmouth has been leading that front forever...and they got a perfect score from one GE judge and 99's from the other...how is that food for thought?

Since there was such a firm stand on not changing anything this year for percussion, I'm sure everything will be fine and percussion will have another great year.


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 Post subject: Re: WGI Prop 10...
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:22 pm 
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8-ball wrote:
So are you saying the IW Guards are no longer educational and are "winning machines?"

And there were what, 27 IW Guards this year...34 IO and 62 IA Guards? So why did it work for them? How on earth would the rule limit the amount of graduates that get into an Independent line??? What basis do you justify that off of?

There was a record amount of Independent lines this year...I DOUBT anyone would not be able to find a place to march.

And there have been more and more lines with guards and such in their shows...Dartmouth has been leading that front forever...and they got a perfect score from one GE judge and 99's from the other...how is that food for thought?

Since there was such a firm stand on not changing anything this year for percussion, I'm sure everything will be fine and percussion will have another great year.


I'm thoroughly confused at the point of this post. Not really sure where you're going. Especially with your first statement. You are over-exaggerating a statement and turning into something it's not. I'm not talking about guards...I'm talking about drumlines. It's a different activity.

To clarify the IW thing regarding members being able to find a place to march. I'll break it down:

So cal has several HIGH QUALITY WORLD AND OPEN class Scholastic drumlines. In So Cal there are only TWO IW Drumlines (Pulse & RCC) and two IO lines (Full Force & Garfield). So where would all these HS graduates march if these IO & IW groups never really had auditions? (They would never have auditions because spots would not open up because 99% of the same people would keep on participating every year). They would have to participate in an IA line. But why would someone coming from a World Class High School line want to march an IA line?

And when it comes to the Dartmouth comment. I didn't knock the idea of the dancers with the line, I just said it was out of the norm. I made no negative comment regarding them or Aimachi, but you're trying to make it seem like I did. Redline also did it this year and I thought that show was great.

But to go back on people finding a place to march. Like other people have mentioned, this activity is still young. You can't teach or create something without experiencing it first. Many of our instructors/designers never got a chance to march an independent group when they were "of age", so it will take time to build this activity, and to create instructors for the activity. So if you are assuming that if this prop passed, that 5 more independent groups would pop up...I highly doubt that.

Remember..if I want to start an independent guard...i need to buy a floor, and some other equipment. At a total cost of less than $10,000. If I want to start an independent drumline (except for Garfield) You're looking at well over $50,000 in start up costs for equipment.

And that brings up a whole new idea....with the age limit gone, and it being harder for recent grads to get into the few IW or IO lines available, will lots of HS start turning into Independent lines in order to include their own alumni? Hey, I wouldn't mind having my graduating seniors back for another year....but is that what's best for the rest of the kids in the ensemble? There's some food for thought....


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