You so had me until this.
Nicely worded though
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thunderdrmz
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Re: quit complaining already
[quote="percusive1"] Never trust the idiots with the pencils.
You so had me until this.
Nicely worded though
You so had me until this.
Nicely worded though
Last edited by thunderdrmz on Fri May 02, 2008 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rhythm is my business, rhythm is what I sell
Re: quit complaining already
You know, that line is strongly worded, but I think percusive1 has a great point. The point of this activity, especially with a scholastic ensemble, is to educate. If numbers fall your way: cool. If your students perform great and the numbers fall in someone else's lap: great. I've known/seen instructors have a melt down in front of their students/competitors/audience members when their line doesn't win: they yell at judges, make a big scene, and send a HORRIBLE message to EVERYONE about their character, and probably their teaching philosophy. It's not a bad thing to use competitive drive to motivate yourself or your students. Heck, I'm as competitive than the next guy (actually, I'm more competitive: see how competitive I amthunderdrmz wrote:percusive1 wrote: Never trust the idiots with the pencils.
You so had me until this.
Nicely worded
). But there will ALWAYS be better players, instructors, and groups out there than yours. The only thing you control is your performance, and if someone comes out that's better in the opinion or judges, and you/your students max out your show and still don't get the numbers you want: so be it. Enjoy the performance opportunity that this brings to percussionists: heck, members are playing more, and being featured more, than in just about any other medium available. I love this activity, and it has done amazing things for tons of my students, as well as myself. Let's enjoy the performances, and the performance opportunities, and not get all stressed out over numbers.
I agree with perc2100. Well put...
And Jonathan Kisner calling the judges idiots with a pencil is way worse that curious0811 complaining about inconsistencies with the judging...which a lot of this topic is about...also calling it just drums in a gym wasn't to cool either...its a passion for A LOT of people, Instructors and Students...some people love it and live for it and there is nothing wrong with that...just like any other sport. It sounds like the people your calling out and trying to make look dumb cause they complain aren't the only one's with frustrations towards judges.
People get frustrated and upset only cause we all work and compete so hard, it's a passion for what we all do. It happens. At the end of the day we still love it, cause we all come back.
And Jonathan Kisner calling the judges idiots with a pencil is way worse that curious0811 complaining about inconsistencies with the judging...which a lot of this topic is about...also calling it just drums in a gym wasn't to cool either...its a passion for A LOT of people, Instructors and Students...some people love it and live for it and there is nothing wrong with that...just like any other sport. It sounds like the people your calling out and trying to make look dumb cause they complain aren't the only one's with frustrations towards judges.
People get frustrated and upset only cause we all work and compete so hard, it's a passion for what we all do. It happens. At the end of the day we still love it, cause we all come back.
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RenoSteven
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Start going to meetings and judging.-
percusive1
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:37 pm
bad choice of words
First of all I use the line "don't trust the idiots with the pencils" in a light hearted way. I have nothing but respect for what they do. I actually do not believe they are idiots. 99% of all judges have spent many years doing what they do and do it extremely well. It is when people hang their whole season on the opinion of a judge, the season becomes stressful and not fun anymore. Trust how YOU feel about the performance. Use your own head and heart to determine how well you did. It shouldn't matter what someone else thinks. What is important is how you think the performance went. You ultimately know well the performance was. The judges are there to give an opinion and rank according to what they saw at the moment. My words were a bad choice of words. I apoligize to anybody I may have offended.
As for my comments of its just drums in a gym, I was merely pointing out the obvious. I too have a lot of passion for the sport. I have a passion for all types of music. Drumline was my life for 18 years. I have enjoyed many wonderful opportunities because of my drumline experience. I used that particular line when my students got so caught up in the competition and forgot the real reason behind being in band....to become a better musician. That may not have been the first reason you joined, but don't tell me after you joined you didn't care about becoming better at your skill. There is too much stress on the number and the placement nowadays. It got to the point where I would watch my kids perform and I would leave and come back for critique. Being at a drum show sometimes is the darkest place around. Everyone gets so caught up in whether they are going to get screwed or I hear the word politics being thrown around. I have even witnessed drum instructors verbally abuse kids in front of a crowd of people watching them rehearse on numerous occasions. That was extremely educational I guess. Music and drumline are supposed to be fun. When there is to much emphasis put on placement, number, and judges comments, the whole idea behind the activity gets lost. It is great to win, but is that what really matters?
I used to be that guy who took it to serious. I would stay up late at night stressing over what a judge said. It really affected me in a bad way. Through my rebirth of my style due to meeting and studying with guys like Tom Float, Pete Sapadin, and Dave Henkel, my job as an educator became much more fulfilling and my groups ended up doing better because of it. Not to mention, I have had students go on and become incredible musicians on all levels.
I can see how the line I used can be misconstrued as a person who doesn't care about the activity. That is farther from the truth. I have been involved in helping organizations better the process they use and I still pay for a ticket to go see shows. I would even buy tickets when I was an instructor to support the groups that were hosting the show. I am always willing to give my opinion to any body that would ask. I am all about the sport advancing. Groups are coming out nowadays doing things I only could dream about in high school. There was no such thing as indoor when I was in school. Groups like Mission Viejo are pushing the envelope beyond anything I saw in high school. High school drumline is at an all time high and it is incredible to watch.
I now have the opportunity to be a spectator and a clinician and have found it to be more enjoyable. I get to watch all my old students who march in places like RCC, BD, SCV, Madison, Pulse, PC, Cadets, Academy, Impulse, and many other fine organizations. I get records from old students all the time after the band gets signed. I have been to symphony orchestra gigs to watch my students perform. The most fulfilling part of my job was to see my students go on and do things I never did. I wasn't good enough to go to Julliard or be the center snare at BD. But I take great pride in knowing at some level I helped my students achieve those goals. That is why as instructors we do this...to better our students.
These are just my opinions and I am sticking to them.
As for my comments of its just drums in a gym, I was merely pointing out the obvious. I too have a lot of passion for the sport. I have a passion for all types of music. Drumline was my life for 18 years. I have enjoyed many wonderful opportunities because of my drumline experience. I used that particular line when my students got so caught up in the competition and forgot the real reason behind being in band....to become a better musician. That may not have been the first reason you joined, but don't tell me after you joined you didn't care about becoming better at your skill. There is too much stress on the number and the placement nowadays. It got to the point where I would watch my kids perform and I would leave and come back for critique. Being at a drum show sometimes is the darkest place around. Everyone gets so caught up in whether they are going to get screwed or I hear the word politics being thrown around. I have even witnessed drum instructors verbally abuse kids in front of a crowd of people watching them rehearse on numerous occasions. That was extremely educational I guess. Music and drumline are supposed to be fun. When there is to much emphasis put on placement, number, and judges comments, the whole idea behind the activity gets lost. It is great to win, but is that what really matters?
I used to be that guy who took it to serious. I would stay up late at night stressing over what a judge said. It really affected me in a bad way. Through my rebirth of my style due to meeting and studying with guys like Tom Float, Pete Sapadin, and Dave Henkel, my job as an educator became much more fulfilling and my groups ended up doing better because of it. Not to mention, I have had students go on and become incredible musicians on all levels.
I can see how the line I used can be misconstrued as a person who doesn't care about the activity. That is farther from the truth. I have been involved in helping organizations better the process they use and I still pay for a ticket to go see shows. I would even buy tickets when I was an instructor to support the groups that were hosting the show. I am always willing to give my opinion to any body that would ask. I am all about the sport advancing. Groups are coming out nowadays doing things I only could dream about in high school. There was no such thing as indoor when I was in school. Groups like Mission Viejo are pushing the envelope beyond anything I saw in high school. High school drumline is at an all time high and it is incredible to watch.
I now have the opportunity to be a spectator and a clinician and have found it to be more enjoyable. I get to watch all my old students who march in places like RCC, BD, SCV, Madison, Pulse, PC, Cadets, Academy, Impulse, and many other fine organizations. I get records from old students all the time after the band gets signed. I have been to symphony orchestra gigs to watch my students perform. The most fulfilling part of my job was to see my students go on and do things I never did. I wasn't good enough to go to Julliard or be the center snare at BD. But I take great pride in knowing at some level I helped my students achieve those goals. That is why as instructors we do this...to better our students.
These are just my opinions and I am sticking to them.
Did I miss something or did someone refer to indoor drumline as a "sport"?
And PS- If you are competitive, it means you really care about the outcome. Outcomes have a lot to do with the judging panel. Therefore, if you are competitive, you really care about the judging panel. So it's funny when I se people writing about "idiots with pencils" when they have so much "POWER" over those most competitive. Kinda like chasing your tail isn't it, then saying "who cares about that tail anyways..."
Just keep pushing the drumline ACTIVITY to the next level guys. It's really pretty spectacular what kids can do these days. So I say just be happy the ACTIVITY is growing, expanding, and entertaining, and do the best you can. It's all good you know?
And PS- If you are competitive, it means you really care about the outcome. Outcomes have a lot to do with the judging panel. Therefore, if you are competitive, you really care about the judging panel. So it's funny when I se people writing about "idiots with pencils" when they have so much "POWER" over those most competitive. Kinda like chasing your tail isn't it, then saying "who cares about that tail anyways..."
Just keep pushing the drumline ACTIVITY to the next level guys. It's really pretty spectacular what kids can do these days. So I say just be happy the ACTIVITY is growing, expanding, and entertaining, and do the best you can. It's all good you know?
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RenoSteven
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I have seen enough kids improve their overall physical health over the course of a season to where I have no problem calling it a sport.
My kids stretch, run, do crunchies, and track rolls at practice. After a runthough most have an elevated heart rate and many are winded.
I guess performing arts would be the best phrase but I think sport works just fine.
My kids stretch, run, do crunchies, and track rolls at practice. After a runthough most have an elevated heart rate and many are winded.
I guess performing arts would be the best phrase but I think sport works just fine.
Fairfield percussion arranger/staff/drill design 07-08
Reed percussion arranger/staff 07-08
Reed percussion arranger/staff 07-08
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curios0811
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quote="percusive1"]First of all I use the line "don't trust the idiots with the pencils" in a light hearted way. I have nothing but respect for what they do. I actually do not believe they are idiots. 99% of all judges have spent many years doing what they do and do it extremely well.[/quote]
What about when you get a woodwind player trying to judge you and he says its dirty when the other dude says its clean and has judge at a drumline dci level?
What about when you get a woodwind player trying to judge you and he says its dirty when the other dude says its clean and has judge at a drumline dci level?
Yo
Doesn't mean he's an idiot. This is an easy comparison because you have the "drum" guy and the "woodwind" guy. Come on...too easy for this room. But are you saying a woodwind player cannot be trained to judge percussion? In most marching circuits now, there is no seperate drum judging (BOA, MBOS, SCSBOA to name a few).
So what if two qualified drum experts had differing opinions on the cleanliness, or dirt, of a roll. Which would you believe? Would you cling to the one who says it's great and call the other an "idiot with a pencil?"
Food for thought.
So what if two qualified drum experts had differing opinions on the cleanliness, or dirt, of a roll. Which would you believe? Would you cling to the one who says it's great and call the other an "idiot with a pencil?"
Food for thought.
curios0811 is right what then?!
Also if they are qualified they should know if a roll is clean or not. I would rather have the trained ear of a Percussionist who has been or is active in Marching Percussion over a Woodwind player who has to be trained. That is unless the Woodwind player has played or been very active in Marching drums, then they should know clean from dirty...I would hope.
Also if they are qualified they should know if a roll is clean or not. I would rather have the trained ear of a Percussionist who has been or is active in Marching Percussion over a Woodwind player who has to be trained. That is unless the Woodwind player has played or been very active in Marching drums, then they should know clean from dirty...I would hope.
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tSz42
I trained my dog to bring me my slippers, but I'd still consider him an idiot.
So, the outcome was that the group came in last place, but they had a successful season. If we are to go by the judges, we failed.
I hope no one is teaching there students like that. Which is the point some people on here are trying to make. Stop looking at the numbers judges are giving you! Don't let a judge ruin your whole season or, "don't trust the idiots with the pencils."
Your first sentence was good, but I disagree with the rest. I don't think the outcome has much to do with the judging panel. If I had a group and we constantly placed last, then by your philosophy we would be failures. What happens if this was the first time this group was out on the courts, first time learning a show, overcame a lot of obstacles to get where they got? Then I'd say they were winners.BD94Euph wrote:And PS- If you are competitive, it means you really care about the outcome. Outcomes have a lot to do with the judging panel. Therefore, if you are competitive, you really care about the judging panel.
So, the outcome was that the group came in last place, but they had a successful season. If we are to go by the judges, we failed.
I hope no one is teaching there students like that. Which is the point some people on here are trying to make. Stop looking at the numbers judges are giving you! Don't let a judge ruin your whole season or, "don't trust the idiots with the pencils."
Not necessarily. This is obviously a competitive activity, or else we would just do exhibitions and recitals. It's OK to be competitive if that is a means to drive improvement. I'm uber-competitive, but even though my group did not win this season, I am more than satisfied not only with their performances and improvement through out the year, but with the experience of judges, their comments, and their numbers. In this world there is ALWAYS someone better: sometimes they are in direct competition with us, sometimes they're not. If you use the competitive nature of the activity to aid in driving students to practice and improve, then you're in good shape. If you use judges' numbers as the ONLY basis to judge your season, then you will eventually get burned: NO ONE goes undefeated always (Logan's color guard excludedBD94Euph wrote:And PS- If you are competitive, it means you really care about the outcome. Outcomes have a lot to do with the judging panel. Therefore, if you are competitive, you really care about the judging panel.
). You are right in the fact that I do care about the judging panel, in the sense that I hope to see quality judges that will make comments I can use to aid my students' education. But I don't care in the sense that their numbers are the end-all/be-all of the success of a season.Good call on both replies. Making my point. I see so many people looking for confirmation or approval from others when working with kids. I agree that the judging panel exists to gived educational feedback so your group can improve throughout the season. Hopefully this will allow for a better performance, improved self-esteem, etc. There have been times where I don't even listen to the tapes because I know where I want to go with things. I have a good feeling for what we need to accomplish. However, when I come across a strong panel, I go right to the tapes to see their take on it. It informs my approach, but doesn't dominate it.
Numbers Schmumbers...I wish we only used ordinals for placement and did away with number scores. That's just me.
PS- If anyone's dog could identify good 4-mallet technique, proper 16th note subdivision, or pick out inverted patafla-flas, I'd hire that dog to judge me every day of the week, I don't care what his primary instrument was...
Numbers Schmumbers...I wish we only used ordinals for placement and did away with number scores. That's just me.
PS- If anyone's dog could identify good 4-mallet technique, proper 16th note subdivision, or pick out inverted patafla-flas, I'd hire that dog to judge me every day of the week, I don't care what his primary instrument was...
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tSz42
judges are human, humans make mistakes.
not everyone will always be happy with the outcome. but thats when it comes time for an instructor to find a learning opportunity for the students.
trust me, when the staff isnt going nuts about the results... the kids will quickly drop the issue and move on. i think a lot of the animosity comes from staff that dwell on results in front of the kids. the kids learn through example, none of my cymbal lines would ever be on a public forum bashing someone... and if they did, they wouldnt be in my cymbal line.
not everyone will always be happy with the outcome. but thats when it comes time for an instructor to find a learning opportunity for the students.
trust me, when the staff isnt going nuts about the results... the kids will quickly drop the issue and move on. i think a lot of the animosity comes from staff that dwell on results in front of the kids. the kids learn through example, none of my cymbal lines would ever be on a public forum bashing someone... and if they did, they wouldnt be in my cymbal line.