NCBA Championship show, 4/4/2009

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oreocookis
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Re: NCBA Championship show, 4/4/2009

Post by oreocookis » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:05 pm

Sometimes I think it could be school district policy, even if the school didnt post their own videos. I know our band website has NO pictures of the band due to the district policy of putting pictures or videos up for people to see. Im not against the judges using my group, but I would like to have permission asked beforehand or given an example on how it is used. Im also afraid if a group doesnt do a good job in the video maybe the judges in the future could look out for specific things they saw in the video of that school and that could be bad for that group. Oh well, Im sure we will get answers soon enough.
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Re: NCBA Championship show, 4/4/2009

Post by Slaphappy7 » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:10 pm

From what I've heard, (coming from a perc standpoint) some staffs prefer not to have their lines up before champs for a few reasons.

1) They are working on copyright issues
2) They do more then one curcit and don't want any CW problems and the videos taken down
3) Competitive edge (other staffs can't pick apart or exploit the dirt in shows and get the rumor mill buzzing) OR (other staffs can't steal an idea from a competing line)

I know that's not that big of a help but as I said it's what I heard.

Speaking of NCBA's video vendor, I just posted this on the perc forum. I'd love more insight.
Slaphappy7 wrote:Mainly about Video. Is NCBA under some kind of long term or primary use contract with Brahma media? Everyone says they are lousy and I got a chance to see a DVD from a few years ago were some of the Open class Lines entire show wasn't even recorded. But from what I hear, folks still had to pay full price! :shock:

The only reason I ask if because it looks like everyone else in the area uses Playback Memories. I know they done a helluva job on the CCGC and WBA videos.

So I just wonder, is it contractual, $$$, a backroom agreement between old friends? What's the deal?

Lastly, what if NCBA via the upcoming rules congress or w/e just adopt WGI's CW rules for perc and guard for all shows? If you're not familiar with the rules...


http://www.wgi.org/resources/copyright.php
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Re: NCBA Championship show, 4/4/2009

Post by JenKozy » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:57 pm

Agreed that it shouldn't be up to instructors and directors to take down videos if someone does not have permission from the school to record. However, like Erin said, you cannot control every single person in the audience. If you don't want your shows posted, then take action and do your part to take them down. How many of us have seen video's of regionals, take from the back bleachers by devices such as cell phones and digital cameras? You can't expect the people working the doors to search bags.

I don't mind that our shows get posted on youtube. I use it to compare our shows from one week to the next. I also have alumni that are always looking out to see what we are up to, and it's a great way for friends and family that live too far to attend a show to see what we are doing. If NCBA wants to use my shows as an educational tool, then be my guest! Because, IMHO, that means that the judges are doing some kind of training! :wink:

As for adopting the WGI and CCGC rules... I am all for it. However, it's the full body of the membership that you have to convince. There are many people out there that can tell you that trying to get something changed is sometimes not the easiest thing to do.
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Re: NCBA Championship show, 4/4/2009

Post by mariahorn » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:06 pm

Maybe this is slightly off topic (or at least the topic the thread has become...), but I have a question about the pictures.

Can any guard at any time go to get their group picture done, or are you only able to do it right after you perform? I don't want our "B" guard to do pictures until after the "A" guard has performed.

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Re: NCBA Championship show, 4/4/2009

Post by ErinF » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:40 pm

3) Competitive edge (other staffs can't pick apart or exploit the dirt in shows and get the rumor mill buzzing) OR (other staffs can't steal an idea from a competing line

Slaphappy- I dont think it makes a difference. The guard (or percussion) has already performed in public, in front of students and instructors so isn't the groups "cover" already blown at that point? If someone wants to copy something they can easily take an idea from having watched the group perform in person in the gym. Id say your point is completely valid if videos of the groups practices were going up since those are private. But once you perform, the cats out of the bag! Same goes for people who want to pick apart the shows and start rumors. That will happen wether videos are posted or not. Its unfortunate, but not recording the shows wont stop it.

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Re: NCBA Championship show, 4/4/2009

Post by Steven » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:01 pm

ErinF wrote: If someone wants to copy something they can easily take an idea from having watched the group perform in person in the gym.
Its a lot easier to jack an idea, especially a complex one, when you can watch it over and over again at your leisure, in the comfort of your own home.

Here is another reason I'm surprised no one has really talked about, its a piece of art that some one spent hours working on. A painter wouldn't want you to go into their public show, take pictures and distribute them without permission. Even if its not for profit or in the name of education.
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Re: NCBA Championship show, 4/4/2009

Post by twinmomma » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:25 pm

Here is another reason I'm surprised no one has really talked about, its a piece of art that some one spent hours working on. A painter wouldn't want you to go into their public show, take pictures and distribute them without permission. Even if its not for profit or in the name of education.
In some ways I agree with you. However, as an artist, you also want your work to be seen. Would it be enough for you that only 150 people saw your work one time? Would you want the other exhibiting artists to see it, appreciate it, applaud it? Wouldn't you want to expose people who have yet to experience such an artform to your work? How can you do this by limiting it's exposure?

The reality is, by insulating the colorguard community and preventing distribution of videos in venues like Youtube, we contribute to our own demise. How do you recruit new members if they've never been to a parade or field show or winterguard show? How do you maintain excellence and motivate your students unless they can see what other groups do and find inspiration in it?

I think your analogy is a good one, but it's also akin to saying that you wrote a book and you only want a small population to read it. That's fine, but eventually the people interested in what you have to say will diminish because nobody knows you're out there. We can't be elitist and exclusionary in the name of art. Art should be available to all. Does that open us up for plagiarism? Sure. But imitation is also the sincerist form of flattery. So what if another guard does a variation on that really cool move you think you invented. Did they do it in the same context? With the same music? With the same meaning? I think that argument falls apart when you look at the activity as art for educational purposes.
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Re: NCBA Championship show, 4/4/2009

Post by rhinestonekitty » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:37 pm

mariahorn wrote:Maybe this is slightly off topic (or at least the topic the thread has become...), but I have a question about the pictures.

Can any guard at any time go to get their group picture done, or are you only able to do it right after you perform? I don't want our "B" guard to do pictures until after the "A" guard has performed.

I don't know the answer to this, but I don't see why that would be a problem. I'm sure the photographer would be willing to make accommodations (at least he should). He replied quickly to my e-mail, so maybe see what he says - musical.images@hotmail.com

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Re: NCBA Championship show, 4/4/2009

Post by ErinF » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:57 pm

Here is another reason I'm surprised no one has really talked about, its a piece of art that some one spent hours working on. A painter wouldn't want you to go into their public show, take pictures and distribute them without permission. Even if its not for profit or in the name of education.

Unless you're an artist who creates only for himself isnt the point to create art that will be shared with as many people as possible?
Honestly, id be flattered if someone liked my work enough to take pictures of it and to film it. I AM flattered when i see other people besides tao that have video taped my girls performing. I've also seen other groups who have copied work or drill that we've done in shows on street and personally, it doesnt bother me. If anything its an ego boost to know that some other school saw the show i wrote and thought it was creative enough to take something from it and use it in their own show. :)

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Re: NCBA Championship show, 4/4/2009

Post by Steven » Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:09 pm

twinmomma wrote: In some ways I agree with you. However, as an artist, you also want your work to be seen. Would it be enough for you that only 150 people saw your work one time? Would you want the other exhibiting artists to see it, appreciate it, applaud it? Wouldn't you want to expose people who have yet to experience such an artform to your work? How can you do this by limiting it's exposure?.
Thanks for the thoughtful response,

To be short I would post my own videos of the show when me and the others who worked on the product were ready for it to be released to the public.

This enables the people who were involved in said project to use the interest generated in our art to link/showcase other projects we are involved with. It also gives us a chance to give due credit to those who made the production possible. (cym tech, band director, uniform manager, boosters ext.)
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Re: NCBA Championship show, 4/4/2009

Post by twinmomma » Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:02 pm

I definitely see your point, but isn't the art public at the first performance? Sure, it's an evolving piece of art, but the process of that evolution is educational in and of itself. Watching the progress and the changes is just as valuable as seeing it in a polished, finished state.

I do agree credit should be given where credit is due, however I've never been involved in colorguard for the notoriety (not saying you are). But I would never deprive anyone else of the recognition that is totally deserved.
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Re: NCBA Championship show, 4/4/2009

Post by danceswithwood » Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:34 pm

Steven wrote:
twinmomma wrote: I would post my own videos of the show when me and the others who worked on the product were ready for it to be released to the public.
That resonates strongly with me.

IMO, designers/units are choosing to SHARE their work with us ... they're not GIVING it to us to do with it whatever we want (like stick it on youtube and then tell them it's their responsibility to ask that we take it down).

I wouldn't walk into the release of a new movie, a Broadway play, a play at my local art center or any other live performance for which I've purchased a ticket and automatically expect to be allowed to videotape it ... even if my kids were in it.



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Re: NCBA Championship show, 4/4/2009

Post by mariahorn » Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:12 pm

danceswithwood wrote: I wouldn't walk into the release of a new movie, a Broadway play, a play at my local art center or any other live performance for which I've purchased a ticket and automatically expect to be allowed to videotape it ... even if my kids were in it.
Wow, good point! Great example.

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Re: NCBA Championship show, 4/4/2009

Post by twinmomma » Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:31 pm

Very good point.

That said, I think you have to look at the ultimate goal. People in movies, Broadway shows, etc... are being paid for their work. Now, some instructors get paid, other groups have no instructor. This is about love of the art, not about paying your bills with it. In that respect, it's more like performance art. Comparing Broadway to NCBA might be a stretch...you might have better luck comparing it to off-off-off Broadway. And sometimes, the only way to get the word out on those out of the way shows is to resort to grass roots self-promotion. And isn't that what we are doing here? Promoting our activity? Looking to find people to appreciate, join, and support it? How do we expect to attain that without some grass roots efforts?

I think, unfortunately, what we have is a double -edged sword. Sure, we want everyone to enjoy and support our activity, but we also want to make sure that those involved are treated fairly and with respect. I think there's a way to find balance. I'm not sure what that is yet, but we have a lot of really smart, dedicated, wonderful people in this activity, and I bet we could put our heads together to figure it out.

SO, what about shifting the discussion to where to go from here, because I think we all have really strong opinions and I think we're dealing with a few major issues:

1) Equal access for parents/boosters/etc... in videotaping THEIR OWN groups

2) PUBLIC access to performances outside of the actual performance venue (i.e. Youtube)

3) How to use available media and technology to promote our activity while maintaining the artistic integrity within it.

Thoughts? Ideas? (Can you tell I moderate group discussions at work? LOL)
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Re: NCBA Championship show, 4/4/2009

Post by all_rifle_finale » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:21 am

wgasc, along with several circuits across the country, has set itself up on the DCI fan network. you have to pay a one time fee per circuit to view the events. that seems like an ideal balance here, so could ncba do that also? that way its online but its not free, the right people are getting the credit, and the DCI fan network links members to EVERYTHING under its umbrella...seems pretty fair and far reaching.

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