Judge/Instructor Conversation-from "Rodriguez Show"

[twinmomma]

When I was coaching, I always listened to the tapes to see if what I was seeing was what the judges were seeing. Sometimes what I saw (or thought I saw) was not being translated to the audience, and the judges were always a good source for that. You have to remember that they are basically charged with talking through your whole show - sort of the exact opposite of what you hope people would be doing while watching your group.

I always liked getting tapes that caught things I didn't - it helped me focus my rehearsals.

[north state di]

"Chipmunk" reporting in I am sorry to hear that the tapes did not turn out well. I really do put all I can into the tapes and to know that they did not end up serving the correct purpose bothers me.

I will go out and purchase additional players to avoid this in the future. I have only had this one for awhile and it tested fine hmmmm

Please hear my heart....consider listening to your tapes - it is definitely my desire to give you input that can support what is happening in your program. You put alot of work in the conception, development and evolution of your show. There can be comments on the tapes that indicate if the entertainment value, concept and program development is acknowledged. I find that I usually got a few interesting ideas (or an additional bit of motivation) when I listened to my tapes. just my thoughts.

Again, thank you for letting me know that the tape recorder failed me. I enjoyed the opportunity to view the shows - wonderful to see early, mid and late in the season. Best of all to each of you!

[JenKozy]

It's cool. I have to admit its a laugh riot hearing our show at warp speed!!

From what I could get out of your tape, you had good points, and have me reconsidering some uniform stuff. That helps a lot. I also love hearing how you like that the boys uniforms fit in with the girls. I am such a stickler with my costume designer about that point, and it's nice to know someone else sees the effort behind that.

Here's to finishing our show in the next two weeks. Fairfield is going to be interesting! Usually, about the entire Open class for guards are there, and it's nerve racking!

[twinmomma]

I truly believe open communication between judges and instructors, rather than what is often seen as an antagonistic relationship, would take our activity so much further. As a former instructor, I know what I wanted to hear in my tapes, as a judge, I know what I want an instructor to get out of my tapes, but the two don't always line up.

It's tough, this early in the season, too, to be able to say too much other than "clean it up" because that's the nature of the first show out. I'd love to see a "summit" where judges and instructors can come together and talk about what would help the students the most when it comes to what's on the tapes.

I hope my equipment tape from Rodriguez was at least somewhat helpful. Good luck to all...

[danceswithwood]

I've had some awful tapes and I've had some wonderful tapes but I usually find that every tape has at least one valuable tidbit for me.

Judges are human so the occasional "chipmunk" or failure to press the record button stuff is gonna' happen. After all judging is just another kind of performance right, and even the best performers aren't always perfect. IMO that's human error and not a "bad tape". To me a "bad tape" is one lacking education. One that is focused too much on the mundane excellence issues and too little on the design/training aspects of the show. When I get a bad tape I share it with everyone who will listen and I have (on probably too many occasions ) taken the appropriate avenues available to me within the association to help mitigate bad tapes. I do it because I can't help but think about that fledgling guard instructor who is counting on their tapes from that day to help him/her develop as a designer and grow their program. I do it because I think it's important that judges be held accountable for education being their first priority. When units don't grow year after year or when there's a inordinately large number of novice groups I think it shows a lack of education ... and I think the judging community owns a big chunk of that ... and I think instructors have the ability to change that just by listening.

I kick it up the ladder when it's not good ... and I do the same if it's extremely good.

[twinmomma]

I am 100% in agreement. I also think the art would be served by some instructor workshops - so many instructors (especially for beginner level groups) are just barely out of high school themselves, and there's no real avenue for training for them.

I think the beauty of colorguard is that it's constantly changing and evolving. And that goes for the judging techniques as well as the techniques on the floor. All of us have something to learn each time we go to a competition or clinic.

[ErinF]

I would love to sit down with some judges and learn more about what exactly a judge likes to see out on the floor. Every year there's always conflicting info from certain judges. At one show judges will rave about specific details, and the next show the judges will nit pick at those same things and give advice for how to change it. I feel like im constantly just trying to figure out how to please the judges.

I didnt think the tapes were bad for the Rodriguez show and i didnt mind the chipmunk tape I just wish there had been more specifics. I walked away after listening to the tapes not knowing wether the judges even liked the show or not.

[twinmomma]

It's interesting - I was always taught that the judges were not there to decide whether or not they liked a show, but the technical and performance measures were what they were looking at. Sure, the GE judge evaluates it from an impact point of view, but it's really easy to get caught up in a show you like and then you stop being objective about it's performance.

From a listening standpoint, if a judge talks more about cleanup rather than making changes, I figure he/she liked it. But I know from my standpoint as a judge, I try and keep statements like "I like" out of it, because you run the risk of sounding like you are judging based on whether you like the show rather than it's merits. There are shows I didn't like that were designed well and performed well and judged accordingly.

Does that make sense?

[JenKozy]

It does make sense. And I agree with a lot of what is being said. It's nice to hear from you guys. I can't tell you how frustrating it is some times that I am not allowed to pick a judges brain (ala DCI) in some kind of critique forum, to have explained in more detail a comment or concern that they have with something in the design, or vise versa, where we can tell the judges what we are trying to get at in our show, and have them give us some feed back.

As much as good tapes are an important element, I also think numbers management is key as well. My same thoughts on tapes go to scores as well. I don't pay much attention to the score. Having a guard and or drumline go out to the first show of the season, with an incomplete show that is dirty and not near perfect and being awarded a score in the 90's? To me, a show that scores in the 90's should be pretty dang near perfect... and complete. Getting a score in the 90's the second week of February doesn't give a unit a lot of room to improve numbers wise with two months left of the season after that.

I don't think there is an argument that there needs to be some kind of formal training for judges, and IMHO, instructors as well, on the sheets, the rules, and everything in between. Most people, and quite a few on this forum, feel like there needs to be some kind of formal education within our circuit. The only problem is, nothing ever comes of it. These things are brought up in meetings, but then, the proposals are given these huge hoops to jump through, and by the time they make it through, they get voted down. Don't even get me started!

[danceswithwood]

Simply put judges are looking for those things on the back of the score sheet and rewarding you for how successfully, how creatively and how consistently you pull them off.

GE folks are allowed to "like" (and hopefully "love"). A big part of GE is the appeal of the overall so they have to be allowed to "like". They are free to talk about pretty much any aspect of the show and the value of particular contributions. They can question design choices, they can tell you what works and what doesn't and why but they don't attempt to fix it for you.

Since there's no EA caption in NCBA, I appreciate it when the GE judge also comments on how the show is constructed in addition to the regular stuff like the timing of planned events and how successfully they come across, the overall production value (themes, colors, costumes, flats, soundtrack choice, blahblahblah). What I don't want to hear from a GE judge is tons of execution-driven commentary unless it's so bad it's killing the impact points. I am completely frustrated by GE tapes full of "point your toes". Know what I mean?

I actually think there's a lot of value in judges listening to each other.

I agree with Jen that numbers management is tough. In fact I think it's the most difficult aspect of judging and the hardest to learn. NCBA is a bit different from other circuits (unless something has changed since last wg season). NCBA judges are not allowed to refer to past scores (even their own) nor are they allowed to keep their tally sheet at the end of a show or make a duplicate. This makes showing growth or improvement through the numbers pretty impossible. The numbers are relative only to the other numbers given at that particular contest.

As to education .... you know I still bear the scars

[ErinF]

I hate dealing with the point value as well. It hardly ever seems to match up to what i felt my girls should have received, be it worse or better than the score sheet.
The Rodriguez scores were super high i felt. I dont know if perhaps judges were trying to be generous to give all the groups out there a little confidence boost or what. I was shocked to see some scores in the 90's or close to it.

I know that judges cant allow their opinions to cloud the score they give but i guess when i say "like" what i mean is "Do they think the work written fits and works with the show." I came away from Rodriguez not really knowing that. I have no idea if judges felt we needed more of something, or less of something. So im filling holes where there was no work, changing certain things and finishing our ending in the hopes that at the next show it will fit in a way that the judges agree with.

[north state di]

Maybe it is because today has been a tough day...or maybe I just feel the need to address an issue...here goes

When you critique a judge, you have every right to speak out. I encourage you to exercise that right, in fact. I do ask that you do so with courtesy. There have been a few comments in this thread that feel a bit harsher that I think promotes professsionalism and the encouragement of transparency.

I find it frustrating that judges are held to a standard yet deprived of items like a recap or even a copy of their own numbers for a show.

I hear with an understanding heart when some express things from passion but I challenge you to make an assumption that judges have passion as well. We all would benefit from supportive training and other resources. Let's be respectful of each other. It is not appropriate to take a hit at someone in an open forum which limits communication from the judge.

Listen, guys, I wish there was a guard up in my area that "got it" and wanted instruction. I respect your abilities and miss teaching. I am looking for an appropriate opportunity to join you as an instructor of a guard as well. What you give your guards is so much more than just instruction - you share your creative soul and so much energy. I applaud and respect you. Please, let's keep the dialogues open but if it is getting where you think that a judge or all of us are not serving you well, please take it to the appropriate leadership and also the appropriate forum for staff/directors.

If my words offend, that is truly not my desire. Over a bunch of years, I just have been cornered only a couple of times and bashed to my face with disrespectful commentary. Not right! I have seen fellow judges referenced on this forum in ways that I don't think would be stated in person.

I want to grow just like the rest of you - let's keep talking, k? I welcome a different format as I find critiques following shows to be quite helpful as long as we can dialogue together.

(stepping off my little ole soapbox)

[twinmomma]

I understand where you are coming fun, but I wasn't getting the feeling that anyone on this forum was bashing at all. I feel like the instructors who have posted here truly want some interaction that helps them understand what the judges are looking for. And I, as a judge, truly want to know what the instructors hope to get out of my tapes.

It is a tough situation to be in, to judge something that an instructor has poured his/her heart and soul into creating and teaching to the kids.

I do think the nature of the instructor/judge relationship has traditionally been antagonistic rather than a partnership, which is how I feel it really should be approached. In the end, of course, the goal is education and nothing good comes of bashing each other - you are so right.

You know, this has been the first discussion I've had between judges and coaches that DOESN'T feel confrontational.

As to the GE judge "liking" the show - I agree - to a point. I think a GE judge can not "like" the concept of a show, but appreciate the design and performance of it from an educational level. Just like I don't like Opera, but I appreciate it and know when it is done well. Make sense?

I'm so thrilled to be a part of the growth of NCBA, and feel encouraged by the positive nature of this dicussion. Let's try and keep it positive and make sure we don't fall into the trap that often happens with discussing this stuff.

[ErinF]

I hope no one felt bashed by anything that was said.
Personally ive really enjoyed this discussion. Other than my 2 former instructors from high school who judge off and on in NCBA, ive never had a chance to speak to any of our judges. So i think its great

[JenKozy]

I am with Erin. It's nice to be able to discuss these things with you guys. I remember at Elk Grove last year, I was able to talk to the three judges in an open forum after the packets were handed out, and I thought that was fantastic! The conversations that I had with the judges were very respectful, and they had some great feed back going into the last week before Champs. I truly appriciated the feedback that we got, and I am hoping that we get to do the same thing again this year! Again, I wish that was something that every show would offer!

I have nothing but respect for the judges. It's not easy getting up there and judging a show that instructors and students have put so much into. I don't envy you guys at all! I don't think I could sit up in the bleachers for hours on end, talking into a microphone and watching all those shows. As much as I love the art of Color Guard, I think I would be pretty fried after watching 10 shows in a row, let alone how many you guys actally have to sit through on a regular basis. So props to you guys. Without you, we wouldn't be able to compete!