March Suggestions Needed :(

[PGOK]

Actually, I knew that the SCSBOA had combined march lists, it just suprises me to find Peacemaker on the HS list and not the Junior HS list.

JCYS

I kind of thought that MIGHT be what you meant. Peacemaker is a slightly higher level than Our Heritage, Miss Liberty and the like.

[JCYS]

Which list is Military Escort on?

I thought the purpose of the SCSBOA parade list was to make sure schools were playing challenging marches of somewhat equal standing..so that no one could walk in with, say, "Military Escort" and a 100 piece HS band and blow away another 100 piece HS band doing, say, Purple Carnival.

Does this mean that THEORETICALLY lets say, Mt. Carmel could do Peacemaker?

jcys

[PGOK]

Which list is Military Escort on?

I thought the purpose of the SCSBOA parade list was to make sure schools were playing challenging marches of somewhat equal standing..so that no one could walk in with, say, "Military Escort" and a 100 piece HS band and blow away another 100 piece HS band doing, say, Purple Carnival.

Does this mean that THEORETICALLY lets say, Mt. Carmel could do Peacemaker?

jcys

That may be so, HOWEVER. The old small school list was for schools under 1,000. Those schools still exist, and they have an even harder time putting together a program. How many small schools do you see competing in Northern California? There used to be a lot. All over the state there are programs where there is no feeder or support, and they are lucky if they put twenty or thirty on the street. And that includes some schools up in the thousands in enrollment. If I have a school out in the desert, lets say. with an enrollment of 1,100, and a twenty piece band, with one trumpet one trombone and one tuba. There is no middle/elemntary school band, so they have been playing for four years or less, except of course the clarinet player who moved in from texas. Peacemaker would be a MAJOR challange. If I was told I had to pick from marches like Father of Victory or Sound Off, or some of the "easier" marches, I would probably say forget it. That why the festival list has that wonderful formula. Street should be done the same way!

Yes a band can sandbag, but they would pay a price. To use your example of Mt. Carmel, I doubt they would play Peacemaker much better than they would play Purple Carnival. Since they can not score much higher on execution, and they would lose points on exposure, they would probably score lower in music.

Are there exceptions to all of this? Of course. And I know your'e going to rip through all of my points like a wet tissue.

Last point- I don't know if it's the same in Southern California, but up here in the North one of the biggest problems is bands playing marches that are TOO hard. I attribute that to band director's egos.

Lunch time is over. Assume ripping position. Commence ripping!

[dr]

Which list is Military Escort on?

I thought the purpose of the SCSBOA parade list was to make sure schools were playing challenging marches of somewhat equal standing..so that no one could walk in with, say, "Military Escort" and a 100 piece HS band and blow away another 100 piece HS band doing, say, Purple Carnival.

Does this mean that THEORETICALLY lets say, Mt. Carmel could do Peacemaker?

jcys

I won't even speculate on the purpose of the list. I'll leave that to you guys that direct bands.

It is true, however, that "Peacemaker" is on the high school list. "Military Escort," on the other hand, is on the junior high school list. Another march I remember playing in JHS, "King Size," is also on the high school list.

I'll hazard a guess regarding "Military Escort," though. If you look at the list you will find that all the Fillmore marches are on the high school list and all the Bennett marches are on the junior high school list. (Harold Bennett was the pseudonym that Fillmore used for his elementary band music books.) My guess - when the list was first assembled the committee automatically placed the Fillmore marches on the high school lists and the Bennett marches on the junior high school list. When the small and large high school lists were combined, some of the borderline marches, like "Peacemaker" became available to the large high schools. Maybe at the time of the list merge someone should have culled out the easier marches and added them to the junior high list instead.

Mt. Carmel COULD play "Peacemaker," I'm not sure if the easier march would affect their score. There isn't anything on the sheet referencing difficulty of the music, so maybe the score wouldn't be affected. I know that there was some conversation a few years back about a very strong Nogales playing "Storm King," which is one of the easier marches on the high school list. But Nogales nailed the march and scored well. It's hard to find fault with a well-played march, even an easy one. If Mt. Carmel played "Peacemaker" badly (they couldn't if they tried), I'm sure there would be less tolerance and a lower score than if they were to miss the mark with something like "Purple Carnival" or "The Gridiron Club."

I know that the NCBA doesn't have a music list. Would a Foothill HS or Benecia HS or LP/O HS be able to play "Peacemaker" there? Or is this discrepency self-regulated?

[vore]

MAKE THE BAD MAN STOP!!! MY HEAD HURTS...

vore

[dr]

MAKE THE BAD MAN STOP!!! MY HEAD HURTS...

vore

He's not bad, he's just drawn that way....

[PGOK]

MAKE THE BAD MAN STOP!!! MY HEAD HURTS...

vore

You know what we need? Some kind of thing like maybe a book, to solve some of these arguments. Do you know anyone writting one?

[vore]

OK... OK... Back to the book writing. Sorry...

vore

[JCYS]

Well, actually, I know the answers to those questions and statements that PGOK made. I am playing devil's advocate.

I guess the point is, if there is one at all, is that no, we don't have a march list in the NCBA. The reason for that is that if there is a small struggling program (or vice versa) we are not going to dictate to them what to play. If, as DR says, Benicia wants to play Peacemaker, they could..but they would pay a price, and a heavy one. The music judges can assess quite a difference in one box depending on the difficulty of the music. Which is why, despite the fact it would be totally legal to do so in Nor Cal, you almost NEVER hear field show music on the street-it has limited instrumentation requirements (ie less divisi of parts) than a standard march, etc. etc. Not to say field music is easy. The point of this has nothing to do with field.

I bring up this whole enchilada (with sauce) because a wise old man (though he was MUCH younger at the time...) told me many, many, many years ago (about spring of 1981 as I recall) about why the SCSBOA music list came about and since I have such a good memory (duh...what was my name again?)
it seems to me that by folding in a list of what are obviously easier marches it defeats that purpose. I mean, PGOK's point is well taken, but really, there are marches on the old "large school" list most any HS school should be able to play.
Really...I played Father of Victory with a 35 piece band from a Jr./Sr HS with 312 kids in it, and did great...and half of them were beginners.

There was a certain band in the 50's (or 60's) that WAS big and came out and played easy marches and cleaned everyone's clock, because SCSBOA music judges had no music list and, apparently, were not supposed to evaluate the difficulty of the music, only HOW WELL it was played...at least thats how I remember the tale..

Here is my final point: (and VORE, I'll send you some aspirin...

1. Do SCSBOA music judges get to evaluate the difficulty of the march being played and add or deduct points accordingly?

If the answer is YES: why have a music list? Thats my BIG question.
If the answer is NO: then you could sandbag mercilessly with an easier march, certainly in some divisions.

I mean, like most discussions on this board, this really serves no purpose other than the hypothetical, but I thought it was an interesting point to make.

JCYS

[dr]

1. Do SCSBOA music judges get to evaluate the difficulty of the march being played and add or deduct points accordingly?

If the answer is YES: why have a music list? Thats my BIG question.
If the answer is NO: then you could sandbag mercilessly with an easier march, certainly in some divisions.

JCYS

Hopefully John will give you the definitive answer, but I believe the short answer is NO.

[vore]

No, SCSBOA has never given any consideration to the difficulty or content of a parade march that any given band is performing other than to make sure the march being played is on the required list. The march Klaxon has won a very music awards and sweepstakes.... although I can't stand the march..... (Any march named after the horn that blasts away during the "dive sequence" of a submarine shouldn't be played!) Now, don't take this comment seriously.... I am only kidding. (wink - wink) I just love Klaxon, Bravura, Storm King and other marches played often and often poorly... (Actually, Phantom once provided a very insightful list of those marches that spectators and we judges dread to hear time and time again...)

Yes, it was 1981 (AND I WAS VERY YOUNG!).

The high school band in the 1950's that brought about the first official SCSBOA Parade List played Military Escort! I won't name the band, but it is located east of East Los Angeles, west of the 605 Freeway, north of the 5 Freeway and south of the 60 Freeway.... Let the Mapquest for the problem child begin...

Back to my cave...

Now, where is my aspirin and scotch?

vore

[JCYS]

Thanks John. I miss those days, and Andy Armenta's mom's burritos for lunch.

jcys

ps-can you send scotch thru the us postal service?

[Hostrauser]

I guess the point is, if there is one at all, is that no, we don't have a march list in the NCBA. The reason for that is that if there is a small struggling program (or vice versa) we are not going to dictate to them what to play. If, as DR says, Benicia wants to play Peacemaker, they could..but they would pay a price, and a heavy one. The music judges can assess quite a difference in one box depending on the difficulty of the music.

Then again, JCYS, in the past 5-10 years you and I have watched two large, talented bands take parade sweepstakes after parade sweepstakes in different years playing "Farewell to a Slavic Woman." While I do love that march, it only has two melodies and isn't the most difficult piece in the world.

Last point- I don't know if it's the same in Southern California, but up here in the North one of the biggest problems is bands playing marches that are TOO hard. I attribute that to band director's egos.

*loud applause* I concur wholeheartedly.

Dear Anonymous Band Director:

Your neophyte, 20-piece ensemble is in way over their heads trying to tackle "Army of the Nile." Get a clue.

Sincerely,
Phantom Phan

[JCYS]

True Phantom, true dat.

However, the point was not that there are marches of different difficulty played on the street. I mean, there are like 100 points available to the judges out of 500 in music to judge what adds up to "difficulty."

As PGOK said, there are some instances where it doesn't matter. And as you say, there are some where it SHOULD, but doesn't always.

IE, Band "B" comes down the street playing Purple Carnival. They are really good. Now, you don't get much harder than PC so depending on the judge, you give them, say 95-100 on that box for difficulty. And their total music score is 480-like I said, they are good. Band "C" comes down the street playing "Farewell to the Slavic Woman." They play it better than band "B" played PC..some..not greatly. THe judge only gives them a 85 out of 100 in difficulty. But..they outscore the other band in the other boxes on the sheet by 12 points and they still win music by 482 to 480. Part of it is HOW MUCH do you dock them for an easier march?? Or should Slavic Woman be a 60 out of 100...then Peacemaker is what? I wouldn't mind band "C" beating me with Slavic Woman and I was doing Purple Carnival IF (and only if) they had not beaten me in the difficulty box. Or if I got a 95 for playing PC and they got a 94 for doing Slavic Woman. See?

And although "Slavic" isn't Purple Carnival, neither is it "Peacemaker."

And I mean, even in the old days on the SCSBOA "large school" list you had Purple Carnival, Purple Pagaent, Law & Order on the same list as Men in Gray, Father of Victory and Crosley and VORE's favorite, Klaxon-and as marches go, Klaxon is pretty calamitous. I think Fillmore was sick or hungover that day.

Which reminds me of the story of march composer WP English ("Basses Conquest, Royal Decree, etc). A tuba player in circus bands. He would climb up into his berth (bunk) on the circus train with a bottle of scotch and a stack of manuscript paper, and in the morning their would be an empty bottle and a new march. (boys and girls, DON'T try this at home, leave the march writing antics to professionals..)

As for people playing marches that are too hard for them..yeah, well sure, that happens everywhere...how many times have you seen field shows where the music and/or the drill is too tough for the group (like EVERY show you go to???) After Loara HS in 1972 did Grandioso with 250 kids, how many bands in 73 did Gradioso with like 50 kids and no low brass? Like a dozen??

Marches not to do unless you have the horses (and I MEAN Seasbiscuit type horses):
Purple Carnival
Law & Order
Army of the Nile
Eagle Squadron
Purple Pageant
Washington Grays
Grandioso
Almost any Germanic march, including The Conqueror, Sontagg Ist, Through Bolts & Bars, etc.
General Mitchell
BB & CF
Solid Men to the Front
Stars & Stripes Forever
Gallant 7th
Sarafand

probably more..

JCYS

[PGOK]

True Phantom, true dat.

IE, Band "B" comes down the street playing Purple Carnival. They are really good. Now, you don't get much harder than PC so depending on the judge, you give them, say 95-100 on that box for difficulty. And their total music score is 480-like I said, they are good. Band "C" comes down the street playing "Farewell to the Slavic Woman." They play it better than band "B" played PC..some..not greatly. THe judge only gives them a 85 out of 100 in difficulty. But..they outscore the other band in the other boxes on the sheet by 12 points and they still win music by 482 to 480. Part of it is HOW MUCH do you dock them for an easier march?? Or should Slavic Woman be a 60 out of 100...then Peacemaker is what? I wouldn't mind band "C" beating me with Slavic Woman and I was doing Purple Carnival IF (and only if) they had not beaten me in the difficulty box. Or if I got a 95 for playing PC and they got a 94 for doing Slavic Woman. See?


JCYS

"My brain hurts"


I used to like Peacemaker, but now it will only bring back terrible memories.


Here's a thought. Let's do it the British Brass Band way, and all play the SAME march!!


Ha, Ha,.....you missed