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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:32 pm 
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BariLizzy05 wrote:
No I was not being harsh because it was not my intention to be harsh. And for one thing, what I said did not imply that compeitions are absolutley useless and we don't need them. So you're the one being a little harsh by changing my words around in ways that I did not mean. Let me explain for you, though I might be a little harsh...excuse me!

I didn't change your words. Those are my words. Did you misunderstand my post?

When I said "what does it matter blah blah blah..." was basically saying that you shouldn't let a few people get you bummed about you performance.

"Let a few people get you bummed about your performance." I'm not bummed about any performance and if I were, it would not be because of any judges or others.

because like I said, IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT THE FRIGGIN RESULTS!!!!

It is a compettion. Everyone goes hoping to be #1. I know there is more to it, but I'm not talking about that, nor did I think you were. This is a discussion about the scoring....period. Scoring matters. If it didn't matter, they wouldn't do it.


I said that because the person was making a big deal about how they had a great show but their score was not higher then it was the week before, which is probably due to different judges, you know, THOSE PEOPLE WHO DON'T FOLLOW YOU AORUND EVERY COMPEITION AND CAN'T TELL WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE PROGRESSED!!!!

They may not be the SAME judges BUT it is the same organization ..... it is SCSBOA......period. They should be responsible for how they handle the kids' in scoring......keeping them from getting disheartened is very important for obvious reasons.

And I was NOT implying that they don't matter for crying out loud! I said they didn't matter because they had a kick a** show and if they felt they had a kick a** show then let them continue to believe in their hearts that they did. Just because the score was not what they were expecting, doesn't mean crap. THAT IS WHAT I WAS IMPLYING FOR YOU IMFORMATION!

I already know what counts. We are discussing scores. Stay on the topic, please. Try to stay focus. It is obvious that what you think and know about yourself is all that matters. That is a given. Any halfway intelligent person knows that. The fact still remains the scores should and HAVE to reflect an increase when you are being judge by the same organization......SCSBOA PERIOD!!!!!


And the score you give yourself may not always reflect the score given to you by judges. You can have the worse show of your life and come out on top or have a great show and don't get a score that they were hoping for. That's life when it comes to marching band. It has it's ups and downs and yes, judging is one of them.

And I'm sorry that you have a life out of band,

And I am sorry that you don't :wink:

but I was just saying that there was already a topic about this that did include a whole controversy.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:39 pm 
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airman wrote:
Passionate, heart-felt response, Band Addict!

However...

What would you change? How would you change it? If you could be on the field tournament advisory committee, what would you tell them?


I'll give you an answer and I hope you will give me an answer to my questions as it would seem that it is being avoided quite nicely by all.....thanks :lol:

1) The judges should have the scores from the week before.

2) There should not be any judges judging a tournament who know or are in ANY WAY affiliated with any of the bands, meaning band members, directors, the schools, etc. This is to avoid any bias. (I hate the politics of it all and this would eliminate any doubt.)


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 Post subject: Yes there are out-of-state judges
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:41 pm 
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for champions there waz ONE judge out of state..from Texas.. that waz for scsboa championships down in san diego


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 Post subject: Suggestion for SCSBOA Prelims- Championships
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:51 pm 
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First of all, I'd like to say 'Congratulations' to SCSBOA for taking on the challenge of holding championships! It's not been that long since bands were placed in whatever division the show host chose to put a group in- a band of 100 could find themselves competing against a band of 200, for example. However, the difference in scores from one competition to another is a problem, because of the use of different judging panels. Here is an easy solution-
Host a one-day competition with all the bands in a division that wished to qualify for championships performing. This year's championships was held with 30 bands performing at each site. Invite bands to apply for the shows before the school year starts, and don't take more than 30 per division. Then, either hold the Preliminary show perhaps the first weekend of November, or perhaps set up a weekday show if there's not enough qualified judges for 3 to 4 shows on the same weekend. We have concert festivals on weekdays- why not a field show, especially one that would qualify for championships? Possibly combine a couple of divisions at one site if the numbers were similar to this year. The judging panel would therefore be more consistent, because it would be the same panel for all groups in each classification. Then, take the top 10 scoring bands from the Preliminary show and they go to Championships, using the format currently in place. To seed bands in the prelim show, we could do something similar to WGASC's championships- average the two highest scores from the season, and seed bands in prelims so that the top 5 bands compete in the last 5 time slots- but the bands are placed in those 5 last spots in random order. Bands 6-10 also are in random order, etc...
Oh, and put marching judges on the field! Maybe percussion and a music judge, too.
Any thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Yes there are out-of-state judges
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:53 pm 
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LiLaZnBanDo wrote:
for champions there waz ONE judge out of state..from Texas.. that waz for scsboa championships down in san diego


I know. Thank you.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:55 pm 
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Grrrrr....let's take a step back just for a sec, especially for Band Addict. Good grief. The ORIGINAL question was in reference to scores and "consistency". The premise is that a band's scores as the season progress (and assuming that the band is getting "better" every show) should "go up", whereas there has been complaints that it's NOT happening that way in southern California with SCSBOA. Taking THAT approach, I submit for CAREFUL consideration the following--

1. EACH competition IS different, with a different panel, and this panel is a group of mostly fellow music educators (what SCSBOA refers to as "peer judging") that are there for the MAIN point of evaluating and "ranking" each group for THAT night. PERIOD. With THIS premise alone, it's a faulty argument to say that somehow it is wrong for scores to go up and down from week to week within SCSBOA.

2. Because each competition is an event in and of itself, and because the SCSBOA is not a marching band "circuit", but an association of music educators, the goal I believe for the competitions that we go to the trouble of going through all the hoops of preparing for is to provide adjudication and RANKING within that particular competition. To me, to "chase a score" or putting weight into how good your show is because of the NUMERICAL VALUE is completely dangerous. My premise is, understanding that each show is a seperate event leading essentially "nowhere" (as opposed to the Drum Corps International model where 90% of the time, there is a summer-long PROGRESSION of scores leading to a World Championships), that it's NOT the final score that matters, it's the ranking you receive in comparison to the bands that you are competing against. In other words, it matters little to me if I get a 90 at the Podunk Festival one week, and a 85 at the Cowtipper Competition the next week. As long as I'm in first place each time against the group of bands I'm going up against is all I care about--that is, if I CARED about the competitive outcome.

3. Here's where Band Addict needs some schooling about what competition is all about (and a few others I'm sure). I've been preaching this for a long time, ever since being a wild "just out of high school" drum corps person trying to assimilate into the "walk on coach" culture here in southern California marching band. I cared TREMENDOUSLY as a person with a vested interest in a band's show either as an instructor and then later as I developed into a designer. And I still do. But I realized this was NOT drum corps, and to "worry" about scores as an entity itself was completely frustrating me, and I ended up realizing to stop worrying about it. I also grew and learned more about the true value of competition lays within each group NOT "chasing a score" or even a placing for that matter, but an honest self-analysis of the program and the teaching the thrill of performing, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, using the resources that SCSBOA provides as a "guide" to what we're working so hard on during the fall. The only TRUE competition where scores REALLY matter and where winning and TALKING ABOUT WINNING is encouraged is within the confines of the drum corps activity--PERIOD. And even then, coming from a group that could give a rat's behind about winning and was all about performing and entertaining, "chasing the score" within the drum corps activity was largely a staff function--and never really brought to our attention (in VK, that is).

4. It is my personal belief that students should NOT be concerned with scores within high school marching bands. It's not your concern. It's also my belief that directors and us staff members should not put so much weight into the NUMERICAL VALUE OF A SCORE, but rather, put it into context with what's going on with THAT particular show that you're "competing" at, and as a GENERAL guide to assist with making the show better. The kids should be taught to be honest, self-motivating, self-disciplined, and realizing the yesterday is over and today is a new day, and tomorrow ain't here yet. CRITICALLY important is NEVER letting the kids think that because they didn't get a certain placing, or WORSE, that their SCORE wasn't high enough. I believe in competition within limits--and this is the same argument I remember reading about in the 80's when I was in studying in music education about how competition was DANGEROUS for high school bands. And it's exactly for this reason...it's a (what I believe) an unhealthy viewing of the importance of the final score and whether it's high enough or going up and down from competition to competition. (IMPORTANT SIDE NOTE--when I say "ranking" I don't refer to the "festival ranking" system. I'm saying ranking meaning what place you come in within your class. Which I guess--thanks Turner for the lightbulb :idea: coming on--would be referred to as--come on everyone, all at once--PLACINGS. Sheeeeeeeeesh....)

5. Last point--and I will make sure I'm clear about this. First, all of us that support the idea of a field show championship with SCSBOA should also realize that there is nothing written anywhere in any by-laws or rules that say SCSBOA is SUPPOSED to have this championship. The process of qualification that was developed by the folks that make up the committee for this championship was the best I'm sure of several ideas. And although I'm not privy to what occurred during these meetings, I can only assume that there was probably discussion along the lines of "we're going to turn into a mini-drum corps type circuit now" because people were going to be looking now at scores. A lot of the people that make up the decision makers of SCSBOA are well aware of DCI and how things are done (and yes, some aren't but that's not important). Good, bad, or indifferent, THAT activity is so completely different than marching band when it comes to an operating philosophy. So I'm confident that there was probably a fair amount of trepidation for SCSBOA to "open the flood gates" with this championship idea and the "qualifying" for it. This championship was a two-year "trial run". I'm sure that if "they" don't feel the angst that some are feeling is worth it, SCSBOA will simply not do it next year or ever again--although of course I don't KNOW this for sure, I'm just conjecturizing. And secondly, I agree VERY CAUTIOUSLY that yes, the scores matter "more" now--and without providing an answer, I have NO idea of how to make the process to qualify for SCSBOA championships any better.

Going to all of this trouble, to paraphrase Band Addict, IS worth it because there is so much MORE to what we are learning and teaching within marching band that to me, outside of the argument that bands are trying to "qualify" for something, scores and whether they go up and down seems pretty insignificant. If you want to worry about the scores folks, follow drum corps. And I don't mean that as a slight. Heck, I was on the Internet every day this past summer keeping my eye on Impulse and Esperanza, and watching Division 1 scores and seeing how the Top 12 was going to end up. It was fun. And yeah, I DID care about the scores and the consistency and the spreads. There's nothing wrong with it in the right context. I just think from an educational standpoint, you run the risk of having the completely wrong focus for your program.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:58 pm 
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(to Band Addict)Sheesh. No need to get all upset folks. It's just a discussion point.

Ok--regarding having the scores from the week before...
Let's say you and I are band judges. You judge the week before and give a band an 80. I have that score in my hand. How am I to know what your 80 is? 80 might be a GREAT score for you, and a sucky one for me. It still wouldn't help. And if a band has a low score from the week before, aren't I going to have an opinion about that band before they even play one note? Doesn't seem fair, somehow. We all have bad performances.

Re judges who haven't worked with competing bands:

If you're good enough to become a judge, you work with a lot of bands, period. Should a judge be someone who never leaves their own band program?

SCSBOA already has a VERY firm policy in place regarding ethics in judging. I can't remember the exact policy, but there is a time frame in which you cannot judge a band you have worked with.

At some point we have to trust that people will do the right thing.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:07 pm 
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Ryan (I'm playing devil's advocate here)--per your comments, should we eliminate or de-emphasize the competition aspect, and go toward the concert festival system of ratings only?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:14 pm 
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very well said, both of you.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:16 pm 
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airman wrote:
Ryan (I'm playing devil's advocate here)--per your comments, should we eliminate or de-emphasize the competition aspect, and go toward the concert festival system of ratings only?


No--and that kind of direction is NOT what my discussion about competition and the inherent "danger" that lives within it. I think my point I made was us as ADULTS being mature about what scores mean.

Again, in its basic structure, SCSBOA can not be accused of having anything wrong with its system when using the "scores go up and down" argument. And that's what we're discussing.

And to be clear, I don't like the way ABDA does it in Arizona (the "festival ranking" system). I've judged for them, and their sheets are just as good as SCSBOA or WBA sheets--criteria reference and everything--and judges DO give the scores. But it's withheld and turned into a festival rating. Just not my bag of tea...

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:38 pm 
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airman wrote:
(to Band Addict)Sheesh. No need to get all upset folks. It's just a discussion point.


I agree with you , Airman. And let me say I'm having fun debating with you! :lol:

Ok--regarding having the scores from the week before...
Let's say you and I are band judges. You judge the week before and give a band an 80. I have that score in my hand. How am I to know what your 80 is? 80 might be a GREAT score for you, and a sucky one for me. It still wouldn't help.

Where I feel that it WOULD help is that UNLESS the band is really bad, you should try and keep the score above the 80. In the words of many out there such as Mr. T, scores don't matter, right? Therefore, give that band an 80.1 or better. Easy breezy. These are kids. They are looking at this differently than the organization is and the organization should bend their thinking in that direction. This is how the kids in band and the parents, friends and family members all view it: One organization, (one unit) that the band is a party to or signed up with, however you phrase it, and they compete in that organization's tournaments week to week by that organization's choice of judges. It is viewed simply and innocently that way and rightfully so. And being such, scores are expected to go up.......NOT PLACEMENT, mind you. I do not care if 89 wins Sweeps one week and the next week the same band gets 94 and places 6th. That's cool! All bands improve from week to week and the scores should reflect that.

And if a band has a low score from the week before, aren't I going to have an opinion about that band before they even play one note?

Nope....if you don't know what that other judges 80 means to that judge, then you don't have an opinion one way or the other. You just have a marker to go by to ensure a higher score, albeit, the score may be higher by .01 or maybe 1.3....just make sure it's higher (go by your marker.)

These are high school kids. Why are they being asked to "think about it this way" when it is a natural instinct to initially think that the scores go up as the weeks progress? .


Doesn't seem fair, somehow. We all have bad performances.

It is so rare that a band's performance goes down as the season goes on. It may stay the same or only incease by a hair but go down??? I don't think so.

Re judges who haven't worked with competing bands:

If you're good enough to become a judge, you work with a lot of bands, period. Should a judge be someone who never leaves their own band program?

At champions in SD, there was a judge there from another state, Texas, I believe. If you think there aren't people on the panel who are a bit bias, you are kiddin' yourself............welcome to the world of politics....it's everywhere you look nowadays!

SCSBOA already has a VERY firm policy in place regarding ethics in judging. I can't remember the exact policy, but there is a time frame in which you cannot judge a band you have worked with.

At some point we have to trust that people will do the right thing.


I really don't know what to say anymore at this point. All I know is the bottom line and that is this: A lot of the kids in these high school marching bands are so happy with themselves and their great performances but a part of them, small part for some, large part for others, is sad that they got a 93 one week and the next week they got an 89 and on the video it is obvious that their show was better. And the only answer we have for them is ......................well, you know the answer already. Need I repeat it?

Scoring matters.........heck, you don't get a metal without the highest score, right? Everyone wants that darn metal that everyone says is not really what is important.?????????????????? Arghhhhhhhhh!

As for Mr. T's last response, I am excited to see it but have to get going so I will print it and read it before bed. It's a looooooooong post........looks interesting.
So I will carefully read it and respond during the week.


:lol:


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 Post subject: Judge
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 9:16 pm 
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Judging is just and oppinion of someone else not based on anyone's previous performance or connections. Yes there are guide lines, but the judges are professionals trained in their field and with a trained eye for what "they think" is good or needs improvement, not what is the general oppinion poll. It is not easy to judge as it is not easy to be a director or a boss and judge the performances of your own people. You judge based on your training and knowledge of what you think is right for that moment in time. Just look at the WBA results from Fresno. I don't think anything is broken to be fixed. :D


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 Post subject: Awards
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:26 pm 
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I don't have a big issue with the numbers.

I do feel they should award the top 3 bands in every division with trophies and medals, and all finalists with patches. They award the top 3 all season, why stop at championships?

There should also be one award for sweeps, the best band of them all!

The kids, staff, and parents work so hard all season not to be awarded in some way. Spread the wealth!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 7:02 pm 
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airman wrote:
I've just heard so much b**ching this year that I would like to hear what some of the disgruntled types think the answer is.


I think lots of the people who are complaining are just bitter that their bands couldn't do better than they were. Personally, I have been frustrated with the judges at some times, and others very happy with them-and not only when my band is winning. It frustrates me when a band with a better show, better general effect, better marching and better music is beat out by a band who obviously didn't do as well. I'm not sure if the judges noticed some of the things I noticed and I'm sure I missed a lot they saw, but I do know this: sometimes the judging doesn't SEEM fair. Of course, the same judges see every group at the competition, so it is fair. You can't say it isn't fair just because your band is losing-that's not fair to the rest of us! I think that we need to get over the thought that the judging isn't good enough and realize that it's what we've got, and it's a LOT better than it could be. We should be thankful for the wonderful band cmpetition program we have and get over ourselves and our selfishness about winning.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 7:25 pm 
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