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 Post subject: How would you fix SCSBOA judging?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:32 pm 
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There has been a lot of rumbling going on on this website as well as around the SCSBOA band universe regarding this years' field tournament scores.

The main complaint I've heard was that scores were not getting higher as the season progressed--bands were scoring the same at the beginning of the season as at the end--despite the bands improving.

Given the fact that there are different judges at every tournament, and that judges are human and therefore cannot be programmed (no matter how many training sessions etc. judges are required to attend) to be numerically consistent when music is such a subjective area, how would YOU fix the current system?

I'm not saying the current system is bad or broken--I'm just wondering how you would change it if you are one of the dissatisfied band members/band directors/staff members.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:37 pm 
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The judging should really change.

we should have judges from out of state. people that aren't familiar with the bands that are around.

For championships, there should definitly be judges from out of the state.

in the end, I think it would be a lot more fair.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:42 pm 
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I guess I'm wondering how you would fix the process of judging--yes, of course SCSBOA could get judges from out of state (although how many active band directors have the time to travel out of state to judge a field tournament during field season--would you want to only have retired or inactive out-of-state judges? And welcome to higher entry fees to cover hotels and plane flights) Even the out-of-state judges would have to use the present system (scoring sheets, criteria, etc.)

Are you saying that the problem is that our own so. cal band directors are incapable of judging our area bands?

Just asking for a clarification.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:46 pm 
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I am thinking that some of the judges if they like the band or know the director and what not they could add a few more points... therefore giving that group an advantage.

as for out of state judging it could be active or retired people doing the judging. I think paying just a tiny bit more money could be worth it in the end. It's not like we'd have to fly them out from NY... it could be from arizona, washington, nevada, oregon, etc.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:46 pm 
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I'm a little befuddled by this because I'm not quite sure anything HAS to be fixed. I only say that because if we take away the qualifying piece of this puzzle, then SCORES really don't matter. Ranking and the DIFFERENCE in score from your competitors really do (that is, if you put a lot of weight into scores...which is both good and bad).

In other words, if I was at a relatively smaller tournament, I could score an 83 and win the whole thing. The next week, I could go to a large tournament with more bands in my class, score a 92, and come in 4th. Then, go to another tournament, and repeat using the first example. So, the JUDGING isn't what needs to be fixed.

But now we add on the "qualifying" part of the equation, and yes, with a lot of respect to the folks that have worked hard to bring this MUCH needed "championships" to SCSBOA, something does need to be figured out. There is an apparent lack of parity in the application of scores from tournament to tournament--and because of that within the scope of having to use the two TOP scores to qualify, well, then for the band that is really solid and goes to big tournaments versus the band that may be just as solid going to smaller tournaments and possibly (but not guaranteed) getting much higher scores may cause an unfair balance in the long run. And again--it's because of the championships I bring this up.

But as for "fixing" the judging itself proper and the qualifying nothwithstanding...I'm not sure I see a gigantic problem with the scores going up and down as having any real merits.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:09 pm 
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Interesting topic. Any SCSBOA judges out there care to comment?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:50 pm 
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Ryan--I agree with most of what you are saying. I've just heard so much b**ching this year that I would like to hear what some of the disgruntled types think the answer is.

The main problem as I see it with the numbers not going up from week to week is keeping the students enthusiastic about the improvement process. I know of one band that improved DRAMATICALLY from tournament to tournament, yet their scores actually went DOWN each time. It's easy to tell the students that the numbers don't matter, yet they are the ones who have to sit there and watch the trophies being awarded based upon those "unimportant" numbers.

Maybe there really isn't a problem, and it's just human nature to complain when things don't go your way. Or maybe someone out there has a really brilliant idea--let's hear it, folks!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 4:03 pm 
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RyanTurner wrote:
I'm a little befuddled by this because I'm not quite sure anything HAS to be fixed. I only say that because if we take away the qualifying piece of this puzzle, then SCORES really don't matter. Ranking and the DIFFERENCE in score from your competitors really do (that is, if you put a lot of weight into scores...which is both good and bad).


HMMM Rankings isn’t that the way a lot of other states do it. AZ and TX where the bands are not scored only ranked. I have heard several complaints about that method as well. There was an earlier thread about scsboa scoring and that trying some modifications similar to Ice skating. Throw out the high and low etc..

There will always be complaints and problems with Judges being involved. because

1. All judges are human and have biases. I don’t care what anyone says everyone has a bias.

2. Scoring inherently leads to wanting to win and not to perform.

3. Those being judged are human and have their own biases.

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 Post subject: Qualifying for Championships
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 4:10 pm 
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I feel one thing that should change is the way of choosing a qualifying score.

I like the idea of using the bands two highest scores. But, I don't agree with the process when one score comes from a single judging panel and the other a double judging panel. That doesn't seem fair.

I think it should only count if there is a double judging panel.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 4:29 pm 
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Maybe someone can explain to me how a band can score 92.4 and take sweeps one week and the very next week they perform even better than the week before BUT score an 89.3. This makes absolutely no sense to my mind.

I would LOVE a simple "straight-up" explanation for this.

ANYONE??????????????


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 4:41 pm 
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Wasn't there already a huge discussion about this??
And the answer to your question trumpetJoe, a band CAN take sweeps with a 92.40 one week and do their best performance and then get an 89.30 because of different judging. The same judges don't judge at EVERY SINGLE COMPETITION!!! So the scores as well as the placings will differ throughout the course of the season. And for another matter, if you had the best show that you performed, what's it matter what a few people up in a press-box say anyway? You shouldn't worry so much about the results, just be proud that your band had an outstanding performance. So the score could've been better, but the score that YOU guys gave YOURSELF is what counts. And it also depends on the compeition. For if it were the 1st competition of the year, you probably wouldn't be judged as hard as if you were performing at championships. And it also depends on how many bands your going up against.

And I'm still confused about why people have to complain about the judging. I agree with RyanTurner in I don't see any real problem that needs to be fixed.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 5:01 pm 
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The way I see it is that each style of juding has its flaws. Yet each has its own strengths, so by asking how you would fix SCSBOA judging is completely as valid as asking how would you fix WBA Judging.

It doesn't seem very fair to point out one style or marching because the scores might fluxate greatly one week. Like I just said, every system of judging has its strengths and weaknesses.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 5:06 pm 
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A little harsh, aren't you? Not everyone is in here ALL the time keeping up on ALL discussions. Some people do have a life outside of band and this website.

Anyway, in regards to your comment, quote, "And for another matter, if you had the best show that you performed, what's it matter if a few people up in a press-box say matter? You shouldn't worry so much about the results,"

If we're not to care about what a few people up in a press box say....if they do not matter as you are implying, then what is the point of having tournaments? What is the point of having scores if it doesn't matter? What is the point of competing? That makes no sense. It's as if bands set themselves up for a big let down....you know, you go to the next one knowing you are better and , in fact, perform better but get a lower score -- equals let down. It is disheartening.

Yeah, it's GREAT to know you did better. The score we give ourselves is great, no doubt about it. I agree. BUT IT SHOULD ALWAYS REFLECT IN YOUR SCORES TOURNAMENT TO TOURNAMENT! It matters! It makes a difference! THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE COMPETITIONS. A-duh. And if it didn't matter, then there WOULD NOT be so much controversy over the topic. Many people commenting on an issue is ALWAYS the frist and most obvious sign that there is, IN FACT, a problem and it SHOULD BE ADDRESSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ya know, FIXED!

If these people are going to run an organization to have tournaments with judges, then they need to put their heads together and have some consistency otherwise it all seems like a pointless waste of time..........in other words, if you do better one week than the you did the week before, your score should ALWAYS reflect that and the organization running the tournaments should ensure that that is what, in fact, happens.

If the judges up in the box, you know, those people up there whom you say their opinions don't really matter anyway, if they don't matter, then let's not have these tournaments. Let's just have field shows for entertainment purposes only..........travel from city to city and perform for people all over charging a fee for admission to help support the bands and just leave it at that. And at the end of each "show," the band members can pat themselves on the back and high-five one another for having performed better that week than the last.........................


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:09 pm 
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Passionate, heart-felt response, Band Addict!

However...

What would you change? How would you change it? If you could be on the field tournament advisory committee, what would you tell them?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:10 pm 
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No I was not being harsh because it was not my intention to be harsh. And for one thing, what I said did not imply that compeitions are absolutley useless and we don't need them. So you're the one being a little harsh by changing my words around in ways that I did not mean. Let me explain for you, though I might be a little harsh...excuse me!

When I said "what does it matter blah blah blah..." was basically saying that you shouldn't let a few people get you bummed about you performance. because like I said, IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT THE FRIGGIN RESULTS!!!! I said that because the person was making a big deal about how they had a great show but their score was not higher then it was the week before, which is probably due to different judges, you know, THOSE PEOPLE WHO DON'T FOLLOW YOU AORUND EVERY COMPEITION AND CAN'T TELL WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE PROGRESSED!!!!

And I was NOT implying that they don't matter for crying out loud! I said they didn't matter because they had a kick a** show and if they felt they had a kick a** show then let them continue to believe in their hearts that they did. Just because the score was not what they were expecting, doesn't mean crap. THAT IS WHAT I WAS IMPLYING FOR YOU IMFORMATION!

And the score you give yourself may not always reflect the score given to you by judges. You can have the worse show of your life and come out on top or have a great show and don't get a score that they were hoping for. That's life when it comes to marching band. It has it's ups and downs and yes, judging is one of them.

And I'm sorry that you have a life out of band, but I was just saying that there was already a topic about this that did include a whole controversy.

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