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Does SCSBOA need to change their scoring system?
Poll ended at Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:59 pm
A. NO 34%  34%  [ 14 ]
B. Yes 21%  21%  [ 9 ]
C. Or make a couple of adjustments 43%  43%  [ 18 ]
Total votes : 41
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 Post subject: SCSBOA judging question
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:59 pm 
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A thought for all of you to think about. In the SCSBOA system, it seems that nobody improves from week to week in their scores. I have seen from the "Championship" grid that some bands have scored higher in their first show than they did in this past week of shows. If SCSBOA is going to have a "Championship" system, then I feel that they need to reevaluate their scoring system. What do the rest of you think?


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 Post subject: Re: SCSBOA judging question
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 3:50 pm 
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Sam wrote:
In the SCSBOA system, it seems that nobody improves from week to week in their scores.


I'm going to give estimations now, but I don't believe what you just said was true.
Arcadia-
1st show:85
2nd show: 89
3rd show: 88
Chino-
85
86
88.55
89
Etiwanda-
88
90

etc.
There are small increases, but obviously the judges get harder because they expect more.

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 Post subject: Some changes are needed for the judging system...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:50 pm 
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For instance last night at the Capo show there were several groups who got the same score or nearly the same score last night as they did in previous weeks, but their show had drastically improved.

In addition, the two aux. judges were consistentally points apart. Enough to make you wonder if they were watching the same shows. There was a 10 point spread between the two on several occasions that I saw on the recap.

There has to be some kind of change. Groups are going out and putting their hearts and souls on the field and coming off feeling great. They know in their hears that they improved so much and then in awards they get the same number that they got two weeks ago, that is hard to justify and explain to the kids.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:55 pm 
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I agree with Alto, there are changes, the judges just expect better as the season progresses. I believe that there are drastic changes, but you can not expect high marks, because visual, and G.E., and Music are all factors that are taken into account. Just cause it looks good, doesn't mean tyhat it will sound good, etc.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 9:43 pm 
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Those are nice examples. But what about the bands that are not in the spotlight all the time. The bands who are trying to improve within the system but always seem to stay where they start the system.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:39 am 
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I think that a lot of that might have to do with the size and sound of the band. Just because a band is trying to improve, does not necessarily mean they will. However, one thing that I did not like that SCSBOA did, was put the size limit. I think that it should be based on quality and size, combined. But, some of the good lower class bands, not naming names, couldn't hack it in the upper class. But the same goes for WBA, NCBA, etc. It just the way it is. You also have to remember, that some good bands from WBA do SCSBOA, and generally don't place well, and viss versa. However, bands do improve in their own classes respectively. I was just talking to a friend tonight, who mentioned that their 2A class group last year, is now a 3A class group, and kickin' butt. They improved, and are doing well. Will they ever be 6A material, probably not, but that is the size of the bands falt. They do not have enough people to hack it. Now, I understand that SCSBOA has some problems, but overall it is a program that works. Bands do improve, it is just that some of us are so caught up in the 6A "war," that we do not see the little guys improvement. But, if you were to watch the 2-4A groups, you would definitely see improvement in scores.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:59 am 
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Can I just chime in here for a minute to make sure you folks COMPLETELY understand something that is VERY IMPORTANT to understand before you start asking for "scoring changes" in SCSBOA....ok? PLEASE...take a moment to soak this in...

The SCSBOA classification system is based SOLELY on the size of the band proper (musicians only). NOTHING is decided about "quality" of the group when it comes to classification within SCSBOA. I've had the hardest time attempting to explain this to some directors who are so stuck on how SCSBOA USED to do classification of bands, which WAS partly based on size of band, but MORE based on how good the band was. All you have to do is look to the 80's with Magnolia as a clear example of this in action (but they weren't the only good "small" band).

Secondly, and this is REALLY crucial as it directly ties in with the above paragraph. SCSBOA does NOT have a "tiered" approach to judging bands within their organization as say DCI or WGI has with their groups. Meaning, all bands are judged within the smale "scale" if you will. The same "criteria reference" (the paragraphs on the back of the SCSBOA judges sheets that "describe" what falls within a certain "block" or "box" of scores for a particular subcaption) applies to the 30 piece band, and the 450 piece band. To say or imply that 6A is "better" than the rest of the classifications is simply WRONG based on SCSBOA rules. Yes...it IS true that the 6A bands TYPICALLY have the highest scores (and I can grumble as to why that is still occurring but I'll pass on that for now). But it is NOT a guarantee, and it doesn't set your band "apart" from the rest in terms of quality.

The ONLY exception to this rule that I have personally seen was last year, and I contacted that band director and got his feelings about it, and it made total sense. But Carlsbad HS is a CLEAR example of a smaller band who made the decision to "bump" up into the class that he felt he could be competitive in. So, last year, instead of beating other bands in (I think) 3A by 15 points, which he was doing, he decided to bump up to 6A to be with a group of bands he felt his show could do well. My point to him (and to the rest) was that I thought SCSBOA's system was best because it was bands like Carlsbad that LED BY EXAMPLE of what you CAN do with a smaller band, and it should've been (had they stayed in their "real" class) a wake up call to the other directors to step it up competitively. Sort of a "if Carlsbad can do it, so can we" situation. But no...he was getting the same flak that seems to STILL permeate this region. That 6A bands are "BETTER". Possibly in reality right now I could see that. But that's NOT HOW SCSBOA is supposed to work...so in their defense (again...I defend them...I must be getting old), SCSBOA has done the right thing BY FAR and making the classifications a size only matter.

It's time to stop griping about where the supposed "focus" of SCSBOA is, and start ramping up programs in the "other" classes...because in reality, you all are one big band family with just different sizes. The QUALITY of the design and performance IS what the judges will talk about...I guarantee it!!

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 Post subject: Amen...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 8:41 am 
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Ladies and Gentlemen,

From my personal experience as a SCSBOA judge and competitor for over 25 years, a "tip of the hat" and "thank yous" to Mr. Turner for his timely observation and clarification of the SCSBOA field judging system.

He has explained (again...) very clearly the intent of the system. I am sure that he and others will continue to educate "rookies" and "the uninformed" each and evey year until he drops and someone else picks up the baton of reason.

vore

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Last edited by vore on Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:02 pm 
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Little improvement in the scores? Excuse me, but I've seen a huge improvement in my band, Sierra Vista. At our first competition, Etiwanda, we got a 68, then a 71 in Rowland, and 2 weeks later (our tournament), we got a 77.9ish. That is 10 points higher than a month ago.

Now, for my input on SCSBOA: it seems like bands have to be great from the start. It took a while for us to earn the scores we deserve, especially since we're a late-bloomer band. However, our competition won high scores from the get-go. They are the ones who made it to championships easily (congratulations to those bands who made it, by the way). It's as if we're pushed to break 80 in the second competition or so. In my opinion, this is unfair. *My 2 Cents*


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:26 pm 
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i know our scores have only gone up, not by like 10 points each time, but they have kept raising

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:59 pm 
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Let me respond to the issue of scores going up as the season progresses...

It must be made clear that all shows are evaluated/scored based on the criteria (the "paragraphs" Ryan pointed out which, by the way, most of the posters on judging issues seem completely unaware of), regardless of when in the season it is. How this effects scores is that the BEST PERFORMED program will score better, whether it is a complete show or not, or whether it's October 4 or December 13. While it is natural to assume that shows will improve throughout the season (which happens for most groups, but I've seen too many go the other way!), the judges do not necessarily get harder as the season progresses. In fact, it may often be the case that a judge you get in late November/December is at his first assignment of the season and can only go by the criteria (as it should be) to evaluate groups by.

Groups who find that their score changes erratically from one week to the next are experiencing the logic of numbers in action; while the numbers are used to determine championship status, they are not reviewed from show to show, before a show, or referenced in any other way by the judges to compare groups prior to their performance - each show is still treated as a seperate entity.

The problem noted here is that while each show may be treated as a seperate entity and produce numerical spreads that vary from week to week, the use of scores to determine eligibility for a championship show would lead one to believe that the scores should all be related. Sorry, I don't have a solution for you, but for now you have to face the fact that that's way it is, and the scoring system has improved dramatically from what it used to be.

As for the wide spread between judges, that's why there's often 2 of them! When you've only got one number from one judge, you'd better have the show that appeals to his/her aesthetic background, or else his interpretation of your performance won't be as favorable - at least with two, the average score helps even out those odds.

Remember that a judge has 3 jobs - (in priority order) to Rank, Rate, and Evaluate groups. Sometimes the rating of a group will vary so the placing can be appropriate. A time to be concerned is when the evaluation (comments) seem way off base, or when the criteria boxes highlighted on your score sheets vary widely (one judge has you as a mid box 1 and the other has you as a mid box 2, etc.) Something that the SCSBOA might want to consider in the design of their score sheets is that most groups do perform in the mid range of the criteria, yet there are the same amount of points in each box. Utilizing a bell curve point spread (with more points available in box 3 and much less available in boxes 1 and 5) would allow more useable points for the mid-range bands, and has been shown to improve the consistency of scores from show to show in other organizatins utilizing this concept.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:49 pm 
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You must excuse me, if I saounded like I was disagreeing with the judging, I am not. I proudly marched in the SCSBOA circuit for 4 years, and will hopefully be a director in it. I am perfectly content with the judging, and hope that it continues its excellent system.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:44 am 
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SCSBOA Judging....Hmm.....there's not much left to say. I played in a marching band in high school and I now teach both high school and junior high marching band. In all fairness of the system.....no matter what system we use it's never going to be perfect. Long ago, the board of directors for SCSBOA probably sat down for countless hours trying to put together a score sheet and scoring system that could best evaluate a performing group. And what we have now is the latest version of it. And we all accept it with open arms and smiling faces :) hehe

I see no problem with the sheet itself, or the system. The only thing I feel needs to be addressed is inconsitency in judging.....especially on factual things. i.e. my junior high band recently marched in a parade, the drum major judge gave me the comment of "too far from band", the showmanship gave me the comment of "too close to band" (and no, his interval did not change as they progressed down the route). So, there are some inconsistencies in judging that may need to be addressed and judges workshops and meetings like that.

For all the people that say judging is unfair or some judges are unfair....i would have to disagree with that comment. The judges are doing their best to professionally evaluate your group. It would be unfair if you didn't know the rules of the game. But the truth is...YOU KNOW THE RULES! You've seen the sheets, you've seen what they're looking for, you've seen how winning bands are successful. The sheet tells you exactly what you need for a I or a II etc...We also know how many points each category is. If i don't like the rules to the game, I don't play. If you don't like the way bands are evaluated, don't compete.

And for BariSax_G. Only the best make it to champs. They're looking for QUALITY, they are not looking for rate of improvement. You should be proud of the progress your group has made throughout the year. I know your situation and you guys have done a fine job. But to say it's "unfair" would be in itself unfair. Some bands wait until Mid October to turn on the juice and start working hard. What about the bands that have been working their tails off since last June. They deserve the recognition. And if you're being pushed to get and 80 by second comp. I say, push yourself, push your group, rise to expectations, and meet those challenges. Start working harder, sooner.

Nobody should wait until the first comp and go, "ok crap, we're 6 points behind, start working!" People should always be working to the best of their ability. Don't wait to see what the standard is for your division.....SET THE STANDARD yourself.


Anyway, thats all for now. Just had to get that off my chest.

BTW, a question for all the vets...why don't we get adjudicator tapes at parades? If would be nice...i've seriously received comment sheets with less than five words on them and no justification for the score. Is there a reason we don't get tapes?

thanks for your answers (if there are any)

JC


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:33 am 
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BTW, a question for all the vets...why don't we get adjudicator tapes at parades? If would be nice...i've seriously received comment sheets with less than five words on them and no justification for the score. Is there a reason we don't get tapes?

thanks for your answers (if there are any)

JC[/quote]

Good question JC--I was just Chief Judge at the Stockdale Show which had to be held indoors because of rain. However, they did have a junior high "band review" section to start the show. HAD the show been outside, it would have been a pass and review down the track in front of the stands...and yes, we would have done tapes on those 3 bands. I judged drum majors...a unique experience to say the least to give comments in a 3 minute span of time for a drum major.

But to answer your question--I'm not sure (I'm sure Vore could answer it better than I could), but common experience and sense would say to me that it's a time issue. SCSBOA Band Reviews, at least based on my memory, are pretty quick paced. Reviews like Arcadia and Mt. Carmel, where there's 40 bands in the line up, need to get moving. I think running a tape would be problematic. HOWEVER JC, if you received a sheet from a judge with FIVE WORDS on it, you my friend have a perfect reason to "green sheet" that judge. And I can guarantee you that the current VP of Parades, one of the world's BEST directors Ron Hoar, WILL most definitely get on that.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:59 am 
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BttrDrummerThanU wrote:
And for BariSax_G. Only the best make it to champs. They're looking for QUALITY, they are not looking for rate of improvement. You should be proud of the progress your group has made throughout the year. I know your situation and you guys have done a fine job. But to say it's "unfair" would be in itself unfair. Some bands wait until Mid October to turn on the juice and start working hard. What about the bands that have been working their tails off since last June. They deserve the recognition. And if you're being pushed to get and 80 by second comp. I say, push yourself, push your group, rise to expectations, and meet those challenges. Start working harder, sooner.

Nobody should wait until the first comp and go, "ok crap, we're 6 points behind, start working!" People should always be working to the best of their ability. Don't wait to see what the standard is for your division.....SET THE STANDARD yourself.



Thank you very much. That really made me think. Good luck to your jr. high band, too!

(BTW, I haven't gone back and helped because I felt that they have always been doing fine and didn't need me to assist. I'm sorry for not telling you sooner.)


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