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 Post subject: Re: SCSBOA 6A Field Championship Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:10 pm 
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thelegend wrote:
I publicly want to say sorry for anyone who was offended and I have not represented my school well. All these schools have done really well especially imo Chino. I hope I can be forgiven and also congrats to the Mount


To the legend, it takes a lot to give a public apology. You didn't personally offend me. I think people understand how frustrating it can be when the numerical results seem not to match performances. Whoever spoke to you, however, gave you good advice.

Arcadia students, don't let scores keep you from being proud of delivering an amazing show. I think that was one of your best performances in my many years of attending tournaments. This competition was very tough. I found the scores surprising, but I was very impressed with the great marching and musicianship of the entire group of finalists.

This takes nothing away from Mt. Carmel. It has to be hard to hear so many say it should have been another school (who was also terrific). Mt. Carmel has had a very high quality program for many years and this year and competition were no different.

I felt very fortunate to get to see so many great bands. Excellent bands inspire everyone to reach higher. Congratulations.


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 Post subject: Re: SCSBOA 6A Field Championship Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:36 pm 
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From viewing the recaps - Arcadia had a great show, especially Musically. They had the highest scores of the night in Music and Music Effect. They would have medaled if not for the Visual Effects Judge. Visual Performance Judge also had them lower than the top 3 finishers.

Regardless, the Arcadia kids, staff, and volunteers should be proud of what they accomplished this year so far. I'm sure they're going to be killing it during drumline and winterguard competition!


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 Post subject: Re: SCSBOA 6A Field Championship Predictions?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:05 am 
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Does anyone know why the music and visual captions weren't announced at the awards? Or was I unconscious for part of it? I would have been happier about Arcadia's scores if I'd known they'd won music performance and effect.


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 Post subject: Re: SCSBOA 6A Field Championship Predictions?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:48 pm 
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Any idea why they got docked as much as they did? Just by watching the videos of all the bands, I felt as though Arcadia should've scored higher. I mean, 20 points below the Etiwanda?? That feels like too much of a gap. Seems more like a message than a true score. Although, knowing that the Visual Effect judge was Mark Stone and that he comes from the WBA circuit, it's no big surprise that a show w/ no real theatrical gimmicks (such as set pieces or stationary props) scored so low. (I say gimmicks because I'm not the biggest fan of stationary props and set pieces. I mean no ill will toward any school that uses them, I just feel that a lot of schools have them just for the sake of having them. Not very many utilize them in very effective ways)

However all of this is beside the point. I want to reiterate what peapod said... it's hard when a show that you put so much work into doesn't score where you expected it to, or when you spend so many hours to perfect a show and you miss medaling by .2 and because of a single judge. Don't let this keep you down! This is the best field performance of Arcadia we've seen EVER. You should all be very proud of your performance regardless of what the judges say. I look forward to seeing you all @bandfest and @ the rose parade on January 2nd!


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 Post subject: Re: SCSBOA 6A Field Championship Predictions?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:19 am 
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@HomageA
As a spectator of the Championships I thought Arcadia's musical performance was beautiful and the scores reflect that. But at the same time was surprised that they had no props or special/visual effects considering SCSBOA scoring sheet. They were the only band competing that decided not to use any set pieces. Etiwanda had dozens of trees with a house that emitted smoke and lights. Chinos entire show was a visual feast with the scaffolding and bright colors and Mt Carmels show was also very colorful and had the orbs with lights. Do you feel this was a bad decision by Arcadia's directors not to use any set pieces? (Respectively).


Last edited by Manny on Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: SCSBOA 6A Field Championship Predictions?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:57 am 
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Mentioning the use of Props, is why TX does not have a visual caption in our judging. WE still use Marching and Maneuvering as 40& of the score. The problem with the visual caption ils that any Band that is not Corps oriented, IE Precision Drill or Show Style Band is punished for not having Pit Crews or lots of props on the field. Before every one stops and says you have to have props for a good show, please name me a major university Band that depends upon props. I have watched Ohoi
State, Michigan, Texas, UCLA, USC, Alabama, Auburn and numerous other outstanding Bands who did not need to use props to make their show good. I for one think that the Props have gotten out of hand, and sorry folks, When having the Best music does not get you a near the top of the podium, you really need to wonder what you are teaching.

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 Post subject: Re: SCSBOA 6A Field Championship Predictions?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:49 am 
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@JLGORMAN, I totally agree with you. I feel shows that include unnecessary/too many props and field equipment take away from the true meaning of field shows which is great music. Therefore, here were my predictions for championships:

1. Mt. Carmel
2.+3. Chino/Arcadia


Two things I will add. Field show tournaments are like decathlons, not sprints. For a band to have the highest probability to win a tournament, you have to be consistently good in all captions (music and visual). Which is why Rancho Bernardo won so many tournaments for so long. They didn't have to win all of the high sweepstakes awards in order to win "overall" (just being good enough in each category.)

The other, what happened to Rancho Bernardo this year? They did so poorly and I've noticed the last two or three years, even though they've managed to win medals at Championships, the scores they received had been subpar compared to the many years I've watched them.

Congratulations to Mt. Carmel though on an outstanding field show!


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 Post subject: Re: SCSBOA 6A Field Championship Predictions?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:09 pm 
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@Manny I've caught wind that Arcadia is getting new field uniforms next year so maybe that'll be the year they finally give in to using props. I do feel that since Arcadia is so massive the director(s) probably were thinking that the drill would do most of the talking in terms of the visual aspect. However, looking at the scores now, this wasn't the case. I don't believe scores should be based upon the props, it should be based upon the skill level of the perfomers. If a school decides not to use props, they shouldn't be docked for it.

To answer your question, I don't think that it was a bad idea for them not to have props... although next year I wouldn't be surprised if I saw some. And Yes, I do believe that this might have been a scoring issue. I realize they were the only school w/o props there, but it didn't stop them from winning at other tournaments and it shouldn't have stopped them at the championships.


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 Post subject: Re: SCSBOA 6A Field Championship Predictions?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:17 pm 
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In regard too Props being considered as part of the scoring process, here is the Standard for all TX Bands from the UIL Statement on Marching Band Props

THE USE OF PROPS IS NOT PART OF THE UIL MARCHING BAND ADJUDICATION PROCESS. THEREFORE: PROPS ARE NOT ADDRESSED ON ANY OF THE ADJUDICATION SHEETS.

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 Post subject: Re: SCSBOA 6A Field Championship Predictions?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:03 pm 
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Wow...

Props do not earn, or lose points, unless they detract from a show. I don't care what circuit it is. And on the visual sheets, props, the presence of or utilization of, is not a scored element. I defy you to find such a mention, except as used by a performer (say an umbrella, or a moving prop).

Now, on the effect side, how it all comes together visually, props can make a difference. But in my experience, unless very well coordinated, more negative than positive (used as an obvious transition, impediment to drill moves, etc.).

IF you buy into the concept of field show as musical theater, the presence of props and stage elements makes perfect sense. Imagine your favorite Broadway musical minus the staging, costuming, lights, etc. Even the concert versions of Les Miserables, while musically stunning, could be considered "less" than the full stage production.

Yes, different styles of band are better suited to some circuits more than others. A military precision band, or an HSBU show band would suffer immensely in SCSBOA. And some of the powerhouses of WBA have suffered score shock at an SCSBOA event, and vice-versa.

I did not watch this show. I cannot comment on what I think "should" have happened. However, it is incumbent upon me, as a director, as well as a parent and spectator, to believe, truly believe, that the judges have done their best to get the order of bands correct. Do I always agree with every judge on their numbers, or even some of their comments? No, not always. But I choose to participate in that circuit because I value the system.

I'm sorry if you do not agree with Arcadia's finish. IMHO, it is a disservice to every member of the Arcadia family for anyone to fan the flames of "not right." Those students and staff have busted their butt to be the best they can. To place their accomplishments in conflict with a judge, or contest, or another band, does not represent their best interests. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But to place "blame" for a result you do not agree with on something else other than Band A was better than Band B today, puts the fans of Arcadia in a bad light.

Finally, to besmirch Mark Stone as a judge because of his exceptional experience in WBA and success at BOA, that is uncalled for. Knowing Mark as I do, to even consider that he would outscore one band over another simply because they have props is completely off-base.

Ken Hoffman


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 Post subject: Re: SCSBOA 6A Field Championship Predictions?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:04 pm 
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Your points are well made, however this morning after church I had a long and involved conversation with a friend of mine, who I just found out had written the show used by one of the Bands in the 6A Finals of the SCSBOA contest. He is not a native Texan and has written for CA Bands for a number of years. Some of these are his thoughts(not mine) and in his opinion lead to some of the comments made by other writers in this thread.
1. To many organizations. My friend advised that CA Bands are among the most difficult to write for due to their competing in many different circuits and judging organizations. He named off SCSBOA(The Biggest) WBA, MBOS, CSBC, NCBA, BOA, GSBOA and various independent shows. He advised most Bands try to meet standards that are very different at different shows. He especially mentioned the differences between SCSBOA and WBA. He advised that directors were calling him during the middle of the season to see what could be added to a show to make it more interesting to judges in different circuits.

2. The VISUAL issue. This is the show writers comments and not mine.
My friend advised that other than a few exceptions(Arcadia for example) most CA Bands have gotten worse musically in the last ten years. This has forced many Bands to try and get higher visual scores due to not being able to produce high musical scores. He advised that in his writing for Bands in Twelve states, CA Bands by far use more Props. He advised the shows are considered musical theater. He advised that this is the opposite of TX and OK Bands which are much stronger musically and tend to have less need large Props in their shows. I challenged him by saying that Texas Bands use Props in BOA and USBANDS contests. His reply was this . Out of 1400 HS Bands in TX, less than 220 compete in BOA and USBANDS Contests. All TX Bands follow UIL standards. The majority of Bands he advised in TX, FL, TN, OK, ID, GA, OH PA and IL tend to demand less writing for DCI type of Drill shows. He also advised that in FL for example, it is not unusual for Bands not to have Guard Units and Dance Teams have parts written that take their place. He said he had watched the Bands at SCSBOA Finals. He thought that the Best Band won. He advised this will continue to be a problem because CA has not state Standard or circuit standard.

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 Post subject: Re: SCSBOA 6A Field Championship Predictions?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:04 pm 
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Your points are well made, however this morning after church I had a long and involved conversation with a friend of mine, who I just found out had written the show used by one of the Bands in the 6A Finals of the SCSBOA contest. He is not a native Texan and has written for CA Bands for a number of years. Some of these are his thoughts(not mine) and in his opinion lead to some of the comments made by other writers in this thread.
1. To many organizations. My friend advised that CA Bands are among the most difficult to write for due to their competing in many different circuits and judging organizations. He named off SCSBOA(The Biggest) WBA, MBOS, CSBC, NCBA, BOA, GSBOA and various independent shows. He advised most Bands try to meet standards that are very different at different shows. He especially mentioned the differences between SCSBOA and WBA. He advised that directors were calling him during the middle of the season to see what could be added to a show to make it more interesting to judges in different circuits.

2. The VISUAL issue. This is the show writers comments and not mine.
My friend advised that other than a few exceptions(Arcadia for example) most CA Bands have gotten worse musically in the last ten years. This has forced many Bands to try and get higher visual scores due to not being able to produce high musical scores. He advised that in his writing for Bands in Twelve states, CA Bands by far use more Props. He advised the shows are considered musical theater. He advised that this is the opposite of TX and OK Bands which are much stronger musically and tend to have less need large Props in their shows. I challenged him by saying that Texas Bands use Props in BOA and USBANDS contests. His reply was this . Out of 1400 HS Bands in TX, less than 220 compete in BOA and USBANDS Contests. All TX Bands follow UIL standards. The majority of Bands he advised in TX, FL, TN, OK, ID, GA, OH PA and IL tend to demand less writing for DCI type of Drill shows. He also advised that in FL for example, it is not unusual for Bands not to have Guard Units and Dance Teams have parts written that take their place. He said he had watched the Bands at SCSBOA Finals. He thought that the Best Band won. He advised this will continue to be a problem because CA has not state Standard or circuit standard.

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 Post subject: Re: SCSBOA 6A Field Championship Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:35 pm 
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JLGORMAN wrote:
Your points are well made, however this morning after church I had a long and involved conversation with a friend of mine, who I just found out had written the show used by one of the Bands in the 6A Finals of the SCSBOA contest. He is not a native Texan and has written for CA Bands for a number of years. Some of these are his thoughts(not mine) and in his opinion lead to some of the comments made by other writers in this thread.
1. To many organizations. My friend advised that CA Bands are among the most difficult to write for due to their competing in many different circuits and judging organizations. He named off SCSBOA(The Biggest) WBA, MBOS, CSBC, NCBA, BOA, GSBOA and various independent shows. He advised most Bands try to meet standards that are very different at different shows. He especially mentioned the differences between SCSBOA and WBA. He advised that directors were calling him during the middle of the season to see what could be added to a show to make it more interesting to judges in different circuits.


I'm not sure that the issue is too many circuits in general, but perhaps directors attempting to participate in too many varied circuits. For example, the max time in WBA is for a Class A/AA/AAA band is 7 minutes, but that is also the minimum for an SCSBOA show. But as a director in CA, I appreciate the freedom of choice. The adjudication system of one circuit far better suits how I teach and gives better feedback for my students than another does. I value that. Directors who try to make the very different circuits "meld" do a disservice to their programs (and their designers) IMHO. I think the statement that this attempt to "swim in all the pools" is being made by most bands is inaccurate however.

JLGORMAN wrote:
2. The VISUAL issue. This is the show writers comments and not mine.
My friend advised that other than a few exceptions(Arcadia for example) most CA Bands have gotten worse musically in the last ten years. This has forced many Bands to try and get higher visual scores due to not being able to produce high musical scores.

Here, I'm definitely going to take exception. In my experience in CA, now extending over 18 years, I've witnessed a continual increase in the musicality of the marching scene in general, and field shows specifically. If there is any gripe with CA marching music, IMO, is the style of music chosen. As arguably a center of marching percussion in the country, too much of today's original marching band music, again IMO, follows the formula of the WGI percussion model. Exceptionally heavy percussion writing, both battery and pit, with excentuated augmented 7th chords in the winds, with occasional woodwind lines replacing the standard mallet runs. If there is an incease in visual demand, I believe it is in response to the increased visual demands of the top BOA, WBA, and DCI top programs. We're sensitive to that sort of thing.

JLGORMAN wrote:
He advised that in his writing for Bands in Twelve states, CA Bands by far use more Props. He advised the shows are considered musical theater. He advised that this is the opposite of TX and OK Bands which are much stronger musically and tend to have less need large Props in their shows.


And I'll second that observation. In my judging experience across 8 states, I've found much more use, and reliance, on props in CA. To be honest, I believe this regional difference is due to our isolation from the rest of the country as far as field shows go. But, in looking at how WGI has moved more and more to props, IMO as a result of CA programs increased involvement, I think the "keeping up with the Joneses" mentality could spread to the marching realm as well as more and more CA programs participate in BOA Grand Nationals and other regional marching events.

JLGORMAN wrote:
I challenged him by saying that Texas Bands use Props in BOA and USBANDS contests. His reply was this . Out of 1400 HS Bands in TX, less than 220 compete in BOA and USBANDS Contests. All TX Bands follow UIL standards.


But I think an amount of organizations in the range of 20% will start to influence those who do not currently participate. USBands participation has increased every year since the first show. And while all bands follow UIL standards, not all directors are fans. Having judged in TX, there is a desire by some for an alternative.

JLGORMAN wrote:
The majority of Bands he advised in TX, FL, TN, OK, ID, GA, OH PA and IL tend to demand less writing for DCI type of Drill shows. He also advised that in FL for example, it is not unusual for Bands not to have Guard Units and Dance Teams have parts written that take their place.


And in CA, you can find a circuit that also doesn't require or award Guard participation. Hamiliton HS was a perenniel Class A powerhouse in SCSBOA without a guard, winning on their music and basic drill only. But that circuit is not WBA or BOA.

JLGORMAN wrote:
He said he had watched the Bands at SCSBOA Finals. He thought that the Best Band won. He advised this will continue to be a problem because CA has not state Standard or circuit standard.


Until all of CA's circuits mandate judge training, I will agree that there is far too much inconsistency, even though standards ARE in place in most of these circuits.

And I believe, in reading the various posts, that we can agree that most circuits need to rethink the idea of equal weight given to the "What" of the caption to the "How well" of the caption. IMO, while there is a need to evaluate the vocabulary ("what") of the program, it is far more important to evaluate the performers on the excellence ("how well") of what they are being asked to do.

Ken Hoffman


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 Post subject: Re: SCSBOA 6A Field Championship Predictions?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:41 am 
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Reading Kens comments have made me think of some of the differences we have around this nation in choice of music and composition. I found interesting his thoughts about the WGI influence on the Percussion writing for many Bands.

TX and OK are among the states where WGI is not as large an influence on the Pageantry Circuit as in other states. It is not because there is anything wrong with WGI, however in 2013, when some schools petitioned the UIL for WGI to be included as a UIL sponsored activity, they were voted down by the UIL Executive Council. Lest you think that UIL was prejudiced against WGI, they also voted down sponsorship of Drill Teams (thats right the UIL does not recognize them either), cheerleading and Lacrosse. What this meant was that if a school wanted to compete in WGI activities the cost to include insurance was the responsibility of the school district. Needless to say unless you have a wealthy school district, you are not going to compete in WGI. TX does have color guard circuits in many areas, but no state funded programs.
That is why you see very few TX Schools at WGI Nationals.

In regard to Percussion, TMEA has a very strong tie with Percussive Arts Society(PAS) and many schools compete in the PASIC contests. Since PAS is tied in with TMEA, funding is also available for schools to obtain if they are selected to perform at PASIC. Given this situation, you can understand why TX Bands, and our neighbors to the North have a somewhat different view of Percussion use on the contest stage.

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 Post subject: Re: SCSBOA 6A Field Championship Predictions?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:22 pm 
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JLGORMAN wrote:
Reading Kens comments have made me think of some of the differences we have around this nation in choice of music and composition. I found interesting his thoughts about the WGI influence on the Percussion writing for many Bands.

TX and OK are among the states where WGI is not as large an influence on the Pageantry Circuit as in other states. It is not because there is anything wrong with WGI, however in 2013, when some schools petitioned the UIL for WGI to be included as a UIL sponsored activity, they were voted down by the UIL Executive Council. Lest you think that UIL was prejudiced against WGI, they also voted down sponsorship of Drill Teams (thats right the UIL does not recognize them either), cheerleading and Lacrosse. What this meant was that if a school wanted to compete in WGI activities the cost to include insurance was the responsibility of the school district. Needless to say unless you have a wealthy school district, you are not going to compete in WGI. TX does have color guard circuits in many areas, but no state funded programs.
That is why you see very few TX Schools at WGI Nationals.

In regard to Percussion, TMEA has a very strong tie with Percussive Arts Society(PAS) and many schools compete in the PASIC contests. Since PAS is tied in with TMEA, funding is also available for schools to obtain if they are selected to perform at PASIC. Given this situation, you can understand why TX Bands, and our neighbors to the North have a somewhat different view of Percussion use on the contest stage.


Very interesting post. This got me thinking, do you believe that WGI has had an effect on the California circuits (and other circuits if applicable) in terms of props* and visual elements? Seeing that the use of TV's and backdrops has increased significantly in WGI in the past few years**, and it's more or less become the standard for an ensemble to stand a chance in scholastic world class, do you think this is the way that field bands are headed? (If they're not there already)***

*I feel like the term 'props' is being used in different manners. Just to clarify I mean stationary props that are not wielded by the color guard and only serve the purpose of being there while the ensemble performs.

** Before someone calls me out, I realize that in the colorguard and percussion portions of WGI there has always been some schools / independent ensembles that use backdrops and stationary visual elements and it has not just recently popped into existence. I speak more of the addition of TV's and other such things that would've been considered ridiculous back when most were performing with just drill and the floor.

*** I realize that these two ensembles (indoor and outdoor) are completely different and I realize that they are the not the same in many ways, I'm just simply drawing comparisons.


EDIT:

TL;DR: Are field bands slowly becoming more and more like bigger versions of WGI shows?


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