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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:32 pm 
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It is interesting to read the comments concerning the WBA's style of judging Percussion and Guard as part of the total score. In the central part of this nation, most judging is done similar to SCSBOA concerning Percussion and Guard. I think that the idea of Guard and Percussion having 20% of the total score is not something you see in IN, TX, TN, FL, OK, GA, IL and most other states. That scoring takes points away from the music caption which I think is the most important part of the Score Sheet. In TX, the UIL Scores are made up of 60% music and 40% M & M. Percussion is sub section on the music score sheet and Guard is a Sub Section under M&M. I think it is better for the music, however each scoring program has its own values.

In regard to the Comments concerning CA Drum Lines being among the best, Several of my director friends advised that CA spends a great deal of time in WGI. TX Bands are are oriented toward PASIC contests, which like Band judgings are different. Each has its own strength and different emphasis.

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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:45 pm 
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I guarantee there are plenty of CA percussion ensembles that would absolutely blow away the audiences and judges at PASIC. (Woodbridge immediately comes to mind, check em out)


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:25 pm 
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JLGORMAN wrote:
I think that the idea of Guard and Percussion having 20% of the total score is not something you see in IN, TX, TN, FL, OK, GA, IL and most other states. That scoring takes points away from the music caption which I think is the most important part of the Score Sheet.


If Shirlee Whitcomb were to hear your implication that percussion isn't part of the music ("that scoring takes points away from the music caption..."), she'd flip! haha. I know, because during my very first WBA fall meeting, during the introductions, I said I was "Vinnie and I'm a percussion judge..." to which she scolded "NO, YOU'RE A MUSIC JUDGE!" (haha...burn)

The fact that the WBA is willing to give 10% of a contest's score to percussion/music goes to show how much it (the organization) values the percussion contribution AS a major component of the music. The performance, design, and wholistic integration of the percussion ensemble is paramount to the music.


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:33 pm 
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Take a 200 member marching ensemble. Out of that, probably 20-30 are guard and 20-30 are percussion. Just a generalization, but still: Why shouldn't they be represented in the scoring captions? I could be mistaken, but I believe WBA's Music Individual sub-caption focuses primarily on the winds; the sheets take into account that there's a percussion subcaption elsewhere.

General musical performance is fine, but let's be honest: the skills and techniques used for marching percussion can be quite a bit different than the percussion skills used in the concert hall. And the number of musical adjudicators qualified to judge both wind technique and percussion technique is simply insufficient to fill the demand at the regional level.


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:41 pm 
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It all makes sense to me now! I didn't understand before Vinnie explained it. Now I wonder why BOA doesn't do Guard or Drum captions.

It is interesting how a group like Saratoga can go and kill in BOA but not in WBA.

Honestly, It seems like there should be 2 percussion judges and the scores between the two should be averaged. I mean... Watch Ayala, Chino Hills, or Arcadia. I am completely and utterly mesmerized by both their pits and drumlines. I don't see how one person could give thorough and effective feedback to both throughout an entire show.


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:56 pm 
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GottaLoveBand wrote:
Honestly, It seems like there should be 2 percussion judges and the scores between the two should be averaged. I mean... Watch Ayala, Chino Hills, or Arcadia. I am completely and utterly mesmerized by both their pits and drumlines. I don't see how one person could give thorough and effective feedback to both throughout an entire show.



The philosophy of judging (multiple judges, etc) is a whole separate conversation that I won't engage at the moment.

However, in regards to the groups you mentioned, I had the pleasure of hearing Ayala and Chino Hills back to back this weekend. While a second judge may have provided a different perspective, one of the things I loved about those 30 minutes was that I was able to just soak in a musical package that was fully integrated with their respected shows (at the highest levels).

This is the beauty of the WBA system. I wasn't merely listening for "ticks" or who played the "most beats." If that was my job, you are absolutely correct in that multiple judges could be beneficial. Rather, my job was to listen to a few outstanding ensembles (as were all the groups at RCC) and try to understand and experience the musical journey as an entire package.

This is why I appreciate the WBA system...I not only could comment on content and achievement (i.e., "hey, 16 year old...it's not right that you play that fast, with that quality of sound, with 4 of your friends!!!!!"), but I could appreciate the musical journey as well. I could comment on impact, pacing and general effect - how the tenors might integrate with the clarinets, etc. And so it's not merely taking into consideration all the details (although those are important), but largely the big picture. And this is why I get 10% of the score.


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:25 pm 
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GottaLoveBand wrote:
It all makes sense to me now! I didn't understand before Vinnie explained it. Now I wonder why BOA doesn't do Guard or Drum captions.

It is interesting how a group like Saratoga can go and kill in BOA but not in WBA.

Honestly, It seems like there should be 2 percussion judges and the scores between the two should be averaged. I mean... Watch Ayala, Chino Hills, or Arcadia. I am completely and utterly mesmerized by both their pits and drumlines. I don't see how one person could give thorough and effective feedback to both throughout an entire show.


Uh oh. You guys know I'm a BOA guy.

BOA doesn't do guard or drum captions for the same reason they don't do "drum major" or "brass section" or "woodwind section" or "audience favorite" or "musical effect" or "visual effect." (Yeah, I effectively slammed WBA, SCSBOA, and Independent marching band organizations in one sentence.) If percussion is "about music," then why not lump the percussion into the music score, as BOA does? (Percussion = music, therefore: MUSIC--not subset of music--yes?) Quite simply: MUSIC (all music), VISUAL (all visual, including guard), and GENERAL EFFECT (the "package").

But I'm not going to be a hater, because I like WBA's unique way of scoring, and how they reward. I do think they play a role in California's culture of percussion excellence. SCSBOA--they do a good job, too: Even if the score is not part of the total score, there is (usually) a percussion judge at each show that credits that caption.

It's interesting. From what I gather, BOA is notorious for judges that say that "the drums are playing way too loud!" At times I agree. However, I also know that BOA is now mostly indoors--the premier event being BOA Grand Nats--and I think that plays into the sometimes harsh concerns. As unfair as it may seem to bands, I do think they take a more holistic approach. For example, success is often seen with bands that use an integrated approach to auxiliary, percussion, winds, and even props. (ex. You almost never see a band with a "scenic prop"--a picture of a sunset, for example--that sits stationary in the rear field do well. However, you will almost always see a band that USES props (in, on, around, etc.), even if it's the COSTUME of the guard that is the prop, be successful.

Alan


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:31 am 
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In my experience, I don't believe that BOA is overly sensitive to aggressive percussion. I do believe they do an outstanding job of including percussion and auxiliary in the captions they apply to in both commentary and credit.
I agree Alan; most of the bands that participate intend to finish the season indoors, so this effects the way the shows are designed, thus rewarded.

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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:56 am 
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This has developed into a fantastic thread. Great conversation.

For the member asking about smaller bands rarely reaching a score in the 90s. That is okay. The judges job is to get the ranking right; which I actually think happens well in all of the circuit my band has participated in. I do agree that the WBA two-tier ting is tough to discern, but as a director, I have not worried about it at all because 1-3A and 4-5A never directly compete. As directors, if we are doing our job of not being fixated by numbers, we can focus on building quality performance, which is far more important. I think the WBA judges do a good job of giving feedback toward performance excellence.

I really like that the percussion and guard figure into the overall band scores. Often the feedback that the specialty judges give is in very good detail for my staff and myself, and usually my students directly as well. Vinnie, great job of explaining the percussion perspective.

We participated i our first BOA regional this year, and I agree with Mark, BOA does a great job of integrating percussion and color guard within their judging commentary and scoring. I was pleasantly surprised by that. In fact, the commentary was very concise and really helped put a good teaching focus on myself and my staff as we conclude the WBA season.

Good luck to all this weekend.

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