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 Post subject: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:57 pm 
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Anyone for up for the prediction game? Interesting to see what will happen with most of the top 5A bands having done BOA this year. I know WBA uses different sheets than BOA (and on top of that still some wacky "two tiered" scoring system...) but the BOA results have got to have some effect on the WBA scores. Right guys?


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:20 am 
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GottaLoveBand wrote:
Anyone for up for the prediction game? Interesting to see what will happen with most of the top 5A bands having done BOA this year. I know WBA uses different sheets than BOA (and on top of that still some wacky "two tiered" scoring system...) but the BOA results have got to have some effect on the WBA scores. Right guys?

Probably not. Different criteria on the sheets, different point breakdown system. Look at how points are assigned...

Music Effect
40 BOA
15 WBA

Visual Effect
20 BOA
15 WBA

Music Performance
30 WBA
20 BOA

Visual Performance
20 BOA
20 WBA

Percussion
10 WBA
0 BOA

Auxiliary
10 WBA
0 BOA

As for predictions, I'll formulate some...


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:41 am 
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Here's my WBA Championships predictions, based on how each band has performed so far.

A 80.55 Damien HS
A 79.80 The Kings Academy HS
A 78.70 Independence HS 76
A 78.30 Don Lugo HS
A 75.90 Laguna Hills HS
A 74.10 Chaminade HS
A 73.00 Newbury Park HS
A 72.90 Selma HS
A 70.35 Mater Dei HS
A 68.35 Washington Union HS
A 66.35 Central Valley HS
A 64.00 Mission Oak HS

AA 89.85 Cerritos HS
AA 84.10 Live Oak HS
AA 79.50 Torrance HS
AA 79.20 Palm Desert HS
AA 78.85 Los Altos HS
AA 78.75 Fallbrook HS
AA 76.55 Hanford HS
AA 75.45 Sierra Pacific HS
AA 74.90 Beyer HS
AA 73.25 Madera South HS
AA 69.45 Christopher HS
AA 61.40 Sobrato HS

AAA 87.10 Westlake HS
AAA 85.10 Clovis East HS
AAA 84.55 La Canada HS
AAA 83.75 Chaffey HS
AAA 83.75 Fremont HS
AAA 83.50 South Pasadena HS
AAA 82.90 El Toro HS
AAA 82.25 Westmont HS
AAA 81.70 James Enochs HS
AAA 80.75 Madera HS
AAA 74.30 Centennial High School
AAA 72.35 Mt. Whitney HS
AAA 72.15 Tulare Union HS
AAA 69.60 Sanger HS

AAAA 89.50 Los Alamitos HS
AAAA 89.20 Granite Bay HS
AAAA 89.05 Trabuco Hills HS
AAAA 88.15 Damonte Ranch HS
AAAA 87.10 Clovis HS
AAAA 86.30 Oak Grove HS
AAAA 86.10 Santa Teresa HS
AAAA 85.15 El Diamante HS
AAAA 84.55 Los Gatos HS
AAAA 83.25 Valley Christian HS
AAAA 83.15 Buchanan HS
AAAA 82.60 Lemoore HS
AAAA 82.50 Rancho Cucamonga HS
AAAA 82.25 Milpitas HS
AAAA 81.25 Antelope HS
AAAA 79.85 Independence HS Bakersfield
AAAA 79.35 Ridgeview HS
AAAA 73.95 West HS
AAAA 70.85 Tulare Western HS
AAAA 69.20 Bakersfield HS

AAAAA 95.75 Ayala HS
AAAAA 95.60 James Logan HS
AAAAA 93.35 Vista Murrieta HS
AAAAA 92.15 Upland HS
AAAAA 91.75 Clovis North HS
AAAAA 91.70 Nogales HS
AAAAA 91.55 San Marcos HS
AAAAA 90.85 Chino Hills HS
AAAAA 90.10 Mission Viejo HS
AAAAA 89.85 Amador Valley HS
AAAAA 81.85 Rancho Verde HS


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:38 am 
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Hostrauser wrote:
GottaLoveBand wrote:
Anyone for up for the prediction game? Interesting to see what will happen with most of the top 5A bands having done BOA this year. I know WBA uses different sheets than BOA (and on top of that still some wacky "two tiered" scoring system...) but the BOA results have got to have some effect on the WBA scores. Right guys?

Probably not. Different criteria on the sheets, different point breakdown system. Look at how points are assigned...

Music Effect
40 BOA
15 WBA

Visual Effect
20 BOA
15 WBA

Music Performance
30 WBA
20 BOA

Visual Performance
20 BOA
20 WBA

Percussion
10 WBA
0 BOA

Auxiliary
10 WBA
0 BOA

As for predictions, I'll formulate some...


Do you know what the difference is between the 123A and 45A scoring tiers?

Looking at past WBA scores it seems the small bands don't seem to get very high scores. Looking at finals scores over the last several years it seems small bands rarely score above 90.


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:43 am 
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Has the line-up for championship been confirmed?


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:35 pm 
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Location: Chino Hills, CA
1-3A Prelims: http://westernbands.org/schedule.php?se ... ntcode=468

4-5A prelims: http://westernbands.org/schedule.php?se ... ntcode=469

Finals: http://westernbands.org/admin/news_imag ... edule%20(1).pdf

_________________
Mark Stone, Ayala High School


Last edited by Mark Stone on Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:42 pm 
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I'll shift it up a bit for AAAAA:

Edit: actually, you know what, never mind. I just want to see some great performances and I don't care how the ranking turns out.


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:23 am 
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PSM wrote:
I'll shift it up a bit for AAAAA:

Edit: actually, you know what, never mind. I just want to see some great performances and I don't care how the ranking turns out.


Suuuuuuuuure. I saw those rankings. Don't pretend!

j/k!

Agreed 100%. You know what's interesting is when you go to show with such a high caliber of excellence all the groups seem to be "un-rank-able," and...it seems to matter little. BOA Grand National Finals is a perfect example. They're ALL great. Who cares who "wins"? They all win. I'm convinced a lot of the time the judges just flip a coin for the results, results just to appease "the fans." But you talk to folks at Lucas Oil Stadium and most will agree with you on results, which is this: they're all great.


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:29 pm 
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Heh - you caught me!

As a staff member of one of the competing bands, I want our ranking to be as high as we can get it, because it will be good for the program (especially this year), and because it represents a validation of sorts that the work we do is noticeable by other people in the field. I think that basically everyone who works in this field feels the same way. I don't really care about the numbers though, that's not in our control in any way so it doesn't really matter.

As a fan, I don't really care who wins - I just want to see great performances.


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:08 am 
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I very much agree about points and scores. I was just thinking ranking. I actually tend to do my own rankings of which shows I enjoyed the most based on how well the band sells it and plays with feeling and conviction, not necessarily how clean or demanding the shows are.

I know this is old but it's absolutely one of my favorite all time marching band shows. Mission Viejo 1998:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nJFP6t_58IU

It's my benchmark for what I compare to everytime I watch a band.

Does anybody know why the WBA separates out drums and guard?.. I suppose it's because they want to give specific and pointed feedback to those aspects of the programs. Everybody knows CA has the best drum lines and some of the best color guards in the US. But separating those captions can polarize the band. I've seen it happen to many groups.


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:37 am 
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GottaLoveBand wrote:
Does anybody know why the WBA separates out drums and guard?.. I suppose it's because they want to give specific and pointed feedback to those aspects of the programs. Everybody knows CA has the best drum lines and some of the best color guards in the US. But separating those captions can polarize the band. I've seen it happen to many groups.


There seem to be a few reasons for this. One is that the percussion and guard contributions to a show are substantial enough that they really should contribute to the overall score outside of GE - Music or Visual, and, as you said, the feedback for those components of an ensemble should be rather specifically tailored. The other is that it's an easy way to differentiate WBA from SCSBOA and other circuits, which is good for WBA.

On the whole, I think it's a better approach. SCSBOA does have separate judging for perc and guard, but it doesn't effect the band ranking in any way. Reversing this causes directors to look at their programs from a more holistic standpoint, and it pushes them into improving those areas of their program if they're not already on par with everything else. I do think that it occasionally causes programs to weight their music program design too heavily towards the percussion section.

That said, it allows bands to emphasize those things that they do well. The Trabuco Hills show last week was an interesting one for 5A - each of those bands shine at different things, and the recaps reflected that.


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:09 pm 
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GottaLoveBand wrote:
Does anybody know why the WBA separates out drums and guard?.. I suppose it's because they want to give specific and pointed feedback to those aspects of the programs. Everybody knows CA has the best drum lines and some of the best color guards in the US. But separating those captions can polarize the band. I've seen it happen to many groups.



I haven't looked at the WBA guard sheets/criteria, but the purpose of the percussion caption (in WBA's philosophy) is to allow a specialist to view that section of the band in light of the entire package.

But for sake of brevity, here's my quick overview:

This is a different approach than an organization like DCI (in which the percussion score is based on performance and content). Rather, the WBA percussion judge is evaluating how the percussion ensemble's contributing to the entire package of the program. This is a more wholistic approach, in which we include elements of performance, content, overall general effect, and integration with the winds, and isn't merely about "who is playing the coolest beats."

Hope that helps.


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:29 pm 
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Wow thanks for such great and thorough explanations! Vinnieangelo would you perhaps know how the whole two tiered thing works? I read the judge manual and decided to watch some of the top rated WBA bands and it is really unclear to me.

It seems like the idea should allow 123a bands kind of a handicap like in golf.... but they still score lower across the board. Seems the finalist 123a bands don't score much higher than 90.

So should I conclude that even though the 123as are on easier sheets that they are still vastly inferior to 45as?


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:56 pm 
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GottaLoveBand wrote:
Wow thanks for such great and thorough explanations! Vinnieangelo would you perhaps know how the whole two tiered thing works? I read the judge manual and decided to watch some of the top rated WBA bands and it is really unclear to me.

It seems like the idea should allow 123a bands kind of a handicap like in golf.... but they still score lower across the board. Seems the finalist 123a bands don't score much higher than 90.

So should I conclude that even though the 123as are on easier sheets that they are still vastly inferior to 45as?



In theory, the two tiers allow groups to be more competitive within their relative skillset and situation. This would be similar to your illustration of the golf handicap, but it's not a one-to-one correlation.

Other than percussion I don't have any of the other criteria in front of me, but the purpose (at least in the percussion criteria) is to "slide" the scale in a way that helps developing groups reach goals that are consistent with their own educational journey. If we held ALL groups to the same standard you'd have a large number of ensembles hanging out in the low boxes, or a large number of ensembles hanging out in the high boxes, both with no room to grow. I've experienced this in other circuits who don't slide the scale and it's frustrating, both for the judging community and for the ensembles.

Take for instance, box 4. On the 1,2,3A sheets they keyword is "moderately strong" (as in tempo control and musicianship are "moderately strong"). However, on the 4,5A sheets the box 4 verbiage changes (tempo control and musicianship are "very strong"). Each box holds a different keyword by which we are to assess the ensemble; these keywords differ from each tier.

So as the judge I am taking into account the situation (i.e., the general skill level of a particular class) and making a relative judgment call based on the appropriate criteria (relative to the WBA and how it defines concepts like "strong"). It's using objective criteria to help determine a somewhat subjective decision.

As far as "scoring in the 90s," once again, I can only speak to the percussion numbers. Reaching the 90s, in general, is a difficult feat. Last night we saw a handful of percussion groups do it at the RCC show, but only in the 4,5A division. I've certainly assigned 1,2,3A groups a number in the 90s in the past, but I think in general, for ANY class, we certainly want avoid popping numbers merely for the sake of popping numbers; if a group earns a 90, it should be special, regardless of the division.

Anyway, not sure if I'm answering the question, and there's probably a ton more to the conversation, but I figured I'd give a little input. Also, I in no way speak FOR the WBA. I hold no position on the board nor am I involved in any of the formal decisions. What I am presenting is merely the understanding of someone whose had the privilege and honor of working in the organization for the past 9 years (a privilege I hold with humility).

Vin


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 Post subject: Re: WBA Predictions?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:42 pm 
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That certainly helps clear things up for me. I think this all makes great sense about percussion. After all we have some of the best drum lines in the whole country in the WBA, at least according to WGI scores and rankings.

I suppose the confusing part is how some competitions the scores just seem to be stacked by class. Do you know why WBA starts with smallest band and ends with largest? I understand from a class scoring and number management perspective why you would want to do that but what about starting with 3A and keeping the 3as together then perhaps judging 2a after that. Does it always need to start with 1a? Why not 4a? It would be nice for the 1a bands to play under the lights and for an actual audience too... it might also help dispel the "the bigger the band the bigger the score" notion. There are some amazing small bands in WBA that really don't get very much credit. I've seen some small bands that outperform some of the lower achieving big bands but don't get scores that reflect that.

It is a bit odd that even with easier sheets 123a bands never score in the high 90s. Even at finals. I'm talking overall score. Although I did see some 99s in percussion. I'm looking back at the finals recaps since 2008, which is what's on the wba website, and no 123a has ever scored above 93.85.


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