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 Post subject: BOA American Canyon Regional Results
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:37 am 
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Congrats to Saratoga

Finals Results
87.30 - Saratoga H.S., CA
84.70 - Homestead H.S., CA
82.15 - Clovis West H.S., CA
82.00 - James Logan H.S., CA
79.15 - Lynbrook H.S., CA
79.10 - William S. Hart H.S., CA
74.25 - Fountain Valley H.S., CA
72.30 - Amador Valley H.S., CA
70.60 - Westlake H.S., UT
70.40 - Damonte Ranch H.S., NV

Outstanding Music Performance - Saratoga H.S., CA
Outstanding Visual Performance - Saratoga H.S., CA
Outstanding General Effect - Saratoga H.S., CA

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 Post subject: Re: BOA American Canyon Regional Results
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:11 am 
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Prelims Results

CLASS AA
85.65 Saratoga H.S., CA
69.60 Live Oak H.S., CA
58.35 American Canyon H.S., CA

Music - Saratoga H.S., CA
Visual - Saratoga H.S., CA
Effect - Saratoga H.S., CA

CLASS AAA
81.05 Clovis West H.S., CA
79.75 Lynbrook H.S., CA
74.70 Damonte Ranch H.S., NV
73.55 Granite Bay H.S., CA
70.40 Mountain View H.S., CA
67.55 Foothill H.S., CA
63.00 Leigh H.S., CA
61.80 Los Altos H.S., CA
61.75 Fremont H.S., CA
61.75 Antelope H.S., CA

Music - Lynbrook H.S., CA
Visual - Lynbrook H.S., CA
Effect - Clovis West H.S., CA

CLASS AAAA
85.10 James Logan H.S., CA
84.10 Homestead H.S., CA
79.10 William S. Hart H.S., CA
78.35 Fountain Valley H.S., CA
76.25 Westlake H.S., UT (0.1 pen)
74.90 Amador Valley H.S., CA
64.80 Milpitas H.S., CA

Music - Homestead H.S., CA
Visual - James Logan H.S., CA
Effect - James Logan H.S., CA


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 Post subject: Re: BOA American Canyon Regional Results
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:54 pm 
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Hostrauser wrote:
Prelims Results

CLASS AA
85.65 Saratoga H.S., CA
69.60 Live Oak H.S., CA
58.35 American Canyon H.S., CA

Music - Saratoga H.S., CA
Visual - Saratoga H.S., CA
Effect - Saratoga H.S., CA

CLASS AAA
81.05 Clovis West H.S., CA
79.75 Lynbrook H.S., CA
74.70 Damonte Ranch H.S., NV
73.55 Granite Bay H.S., CA
70.40 Mountain View H.S., CA
67.55 Foothill H.S., CA
63.00 Leigh H.S., CA
61.80 Los Altos H.S., CA
61.75 Fremont H.S., CA
61.75 Antelope H.S., CA

Music - Lynbrook H.S., CA
Visual - Lynbrook H.S., CA
Effect - Clovis West H.S., CA

CLASS AAAA
85.10 James Logan H.S., CA
84.10 Homestead H.S., CA
79.10 William S. Hart H.S., CA
78.35 Fountain Valley H.S., CA
76.25 Westlake H.S., UT (0.1 pen)
74.90 Amador Valley H.S., CA
64.80 Milpitas H.S., CA

Music - Homestead H.S., CA
Visual - James Logan H.S., CA
Effect - James Logan H.S., CA


What was difference from prelims to finals? Just different judges?Anyone who was there have feedback? Logan does 85.10 in prelims then a 82.0 in finals??

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 Post subject: Re: BOA American Canyon Regional Results
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:39 pm 
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There are some different standards between BOA and WBA. It could be that in finals Logan did not quite meet the standards of BOA at the same level some of the others did. In many contests, Bands can finish in the top three in prelims and end up 7th or 8th in Finals. Different judges and different standards.

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 Post subject: Re: BOA American Canyon Regional Results
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:10 pm 
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jacjar1 wrote:
What was difference from prelims to finals? Just different judges?Anyone who was there have feedback? Logan does 85.10 in prelims then a 82.0 in finals??


I was not there, but I do know this: judges are the same from prelims to finals, except they swap captions. This is different for Super Regionals, however, and Grand Nationals, where there are different judges from prelims through finals.

I have always seen prelims as the "narrowing down" game. In other words, WHICH BANDS STAND OUT, and WHICH BANDS ARE WORTHY OF FINALS. Not necessarily, "Who is the best of prelims," as oftentimes the bands that perform early get lost in the crowd, even though it shouldn't be that way. (It is what it is--human nature.) However, it IS "who is the best of prelims," too, because class awards are given to the top 3 bands in each class based on school size.

Going into finals, the judges are usually a bit harsher. I'm not sure why, but the points drop. It may have to do with the perceived "national standard." (Who knows?) When you get to the top ten it seems like the stakes are raised. The BEST ten bands, regardless of class, are now side-by-side, whereas before they may have been hours apart.

I think Logan's a great band, but Clovis West, Saratoga, and Homestead are great bands, too; and certainly Clovis West designs their shows with BOA in mind--not WBA. (In fact, Clovis West just finished their season. I imagine they have Grand National aspirations, but only when they're ready financially, etc.) As for why Logan dropped from 2nd to 4th, they could have had a bad run, another band could have had a better run, and on and on and on.

Anyways, that's just my thoughts. Someone else may have a different, or more accurate take.

Alan


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 Post subject: Re: BOA American Canyon Regional Results
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:59 am 
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Judges were on different captions for finals. Different read, different performance. Congrats to all finalists!


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 Post subject: Re: BOA American Canyon Regional Results
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:22 am 
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James Logan did well in both prelims and finals, I would have put them in 3rd, Saratoga and Homestead just really brought it in finals. There wasn't a bad show out of the 10 though, everyone did a great job.


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 Post subject: Re: BOA American Canyon Regional Results
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:23 pm 
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So are all of these bands huge? I see there weren't any 1a bands...


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 Post subject: Re: BOA American Canyon Regional Results
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:26 pm 
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GottaLoveBand wrote:
So are all of these bands huge? I see there weren't any 1a bands...


Nope. Fountain Valley is quite small. There might be another small band or two in there, too.

As for "1a bands," classification is based on school size--not band size. It's not unheard of for big bands (i.e. Marian Catholic--a 2a band, I believe) to have small schools. At this particular regional, there were no 1a bands.

The bands that make finals at BOA are the top 10 bands regardless of class...but it should be noted that it is regardless of school size, regardless of anything, really. Only the best rated groups are taken.

Class Championship awards are announced in prelims, and awarded with medals in finals. If class champion bands are not amongst the 10 finalist bands, they are invited to perform in exhibition.

Does this make sense?

Alan


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 Post subject: Re: BOA American Canyon Regional Results
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:32 pm 
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Oh ok. I get it.... I wonder why BOA classified by school size and not band size. Most CA judging associations group by band size.

Do small bands not do well in BOA? From a quick Google it looks like all of the bands at this regional are pretty big.


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 Post subject: Re: BOA American Canyon Regional Results
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:46 pm 
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GottaLoveBand wrote:
Oh ok. I get it.... I wonder why BOA classified by school size and not band size. Most CA judging associations group by band size.

Do small bands not do well in BOA? From a quick Google it looks like all of the bands at this regional are pretty big.


BOA originates in the Midwest. Out in the country, there are a bunch of podunk, "country-bumpkin" (I'm sure this offends someone) schools that may not have the size or financial backing, but can adequately compete with similar organizations. I should note that this is not unique to BOA. A lot of circuits, competitive events do the same.

It is true that most CA judging associations group by band size, which has its own strengths and weaknesses--weaknesses being that size does not necessarily equate to quality. (We see bands in the lower A classes beat bands in the higher A classes all the time.)

Small bands have historically done well at BOA. Fred C. Beyer in 1993 comes to mind. (They topped an enormous Poway Emerald Bridage.) And, as just mentioned recently, 39-member Jackson Academy beat 350-plus member Duncanville at BOA Grand Nationals in 1993. Other small, successful schools: Northwestern Lehigh, Bourbon County, Ooltewah, Tarpon Springs, and Kiski Area.

I will say that though small bands have done well at BOA, bigger bands TEND to do better if it involves a quality production. I'd say most of the bands that have won a regional or Grand Nationals have been from moderate size to large.

Alan


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 Post subject: Re: BOA American Canyon Regional Results
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:10 am 
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No offense to Alan, but the fact is out in podunk country the size of schools on average is much smaller. For a Big State like TX we have 500 High Schools with 1050 student enrollment or larger. We have over 650 High Schools with under a 1000 students, and 450 of those schools have enrollments under 350 students. This is much the same in OK, AR, LA, MO, IL, IN, Oh, etc. Small schools are the majority . In OK Class 6A is enrollment of 734 students or more. They have 35 HS in that State. In Neb, Class AA, their largest class is made up of 31 high schools having 650 students or more. In Iowa, Class 4A their largest class is made up of 41 HS with enrollment of 500 students or more. Outside the East and West Coasts, this is the way schools are

Also in most of these states the Band Contests are hosted by School Organizations, UIL, MHSAA/MBA, NESBA, ASBOA, LMEA, ISMEA, OMEA, Etc. Out West only AZ has all their contests adjudicated by one Organization ABODA.

In regard to Size of Band vs Size of school contest is this. Small enrollment schools can have great Bands, some are awesome, however if you have a 150 member Band from a school of 330 kids, by the very nature of the size of the school you will not be able to do all the things a school with a 150 member Band and enrollment of 1800 student can.
Why: In small enrollment schools, Band is just one of the activites the students take part in. In these small schools, Band Members play football, basketball, volleyball, cheer lead, run cross country, do Debate, Drama and numerous other school activities. In a CA school of 1800 with a Band of 150 students, how many of the students are involved in all these other activities. My guess would be much fewer.
When in comes to Contests, The Band has to share Saturdays with other school activities, that is why most of our Small schools may only compete once before they go to UIL Marching Contest in the fall. Also a school with 330 students comes from a Town off probably 2,000 people. Not exactly a large area to raise funds for trips.

In TX which was the first state to have Region Marching Contests in the Nation (1936), and Florida which started in 1940 the purpose of these events was to allow small schools the opportunity to do things big schools can do.

Under the SCSBOA rules, at this moment, over 70 % of our High School Bands would be in Class 5A & 6A. Less than 15% of our Bands would be in Class 1A. Also under the Band Size rules, a school like Allen with 715 students in the Band and school enrollment of 4200 students would compete against a School such as Robinson with a Band of 200 students from a school with 670 students. Guess who has the best chance to win.

I think the idea that Los Angeles High School with an enrollment of 4800 students can win Class 1A and people make a big deal of it. Los Angeles High School would have to compete in TX against schools like LD Bell, Churchill, Marcus, Flower Mound, etc.

In sports no one puts small schools up against much larger programs and expects them to be competitive, however that is what you are doing in CA with your Band Size. Sorry Directors, but as we would say in TX, you play against people your size. This is why BOA is school enrollment classification Based. The very nature of the Band Size contest allows Bands to keep their numbers down in some cases to compete in an easier class. In TX we call Band Size classification events contests made for Schools that are large and have weak Bands.

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 Post subject: Re: BOA American Canyon Regional Results
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:42 am 
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BOA is classified by school size because they push the musical education and growth. Schools should represent a percentage of students involved in music. They support the music organizations. The best bands that come to mind are Tarpon Springs, Marian Catholic, Saratoga. 2A divisions that are great programs with quality and/or numbers or both. There are others of course. BOA understands these concerns, keep in mind they did change their classifications from 3 divisions to 4 (1A, 2A, 3A, 4A) not to long ago.


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 Post subject: Re: BOA American Canyon Regional Results
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:56 am 
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Greendale, probably the best band in Wisconsin, pulls together a 240-member marching band from a total school enrollment of 950. They are just under the AAA cut-line for the four marching band divisions in the state:
Class A: 1-800 students
Class AA: 801-1000
Class AAA: 1001-1300
Class AAAA: 1301+

Most of the marching bands in Wisconsin are from the Milwaukee metro area. The average school size around here is still only 1,000-1,500.

California high schools are unusually large compared with much of the nation. Southern California high schools are RIDICULOUSLY large.

Wisconsin has only seven high schools in the entire STATE with more than 2,000 kids:
2,008 Fond du Lac
2,016 Oak Creek
2,027 Neenah
2,044 Racine Horlick
2,072 Madison West
2,170 Green Bay Preble
2,275 Hartland Arrowhead

That's it. Arrowhead HS is the biggest in the state, with not even 2,300 kids 9-12. California alone has 240 high schools larger that Arrowhead. For comparison...
4,363 Downey
3,875 James Logan
3,699 Fountain Valley
3,541 Upland
3,490 Arcadia
3,445 Vista Murrieta
3,325 Riverside King
3,296 Etiwanda
3,150 Los Osos
3,016 Chino Hills

It's all population related. California has 35 million people. Wisconsin has 6 million.


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 Post subject: Re: BOA American Canyon Regional Results
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:49 am 
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Wow…where to begin… (careful…it’s a long one…)
JLGorman writes…
>>> Outside the East and West Coasts, this is the way schools are<<<

A bit over generalized, as there are small schools on those coasts as well, and in many parts of the country large schools. But I’ll grant you that “out in the boonies” doesn’t really apply. 

JLGorman writes…
>>> Also in most of these states the Band Contests are hosted by School Organizations, UIL, MHSAA/MBA, NESBA, ASBOA, LMEA, ISMEA, OMEA, Etc. Out West only AZ has all their contests adjudicated by one Organization ABODA.<<<

Again, a bit of an overgeneralization. There are a number of states who utilize a state association of some sort as their “primary” adjudication provider. And a significantly larger number of states who utilize multiple adjudication providers. In fact, TX is one of them. However, in other states, most do not carry the same weight as UIL does. And that’s true of pretty much every state listed. Oh, and AZ has multiple providers as well.

JLGorman writes…
>>> In regard to Size of Band vs Size of school … [edited for brevity] In small enrollment schools, Band is just one of the activites the students take part in. In these small schools, Band Members play football, basketball, volleyball, cheer lead, run cross country, do Debate, Drama and numerous other school activities. In a CA school of 1800 with a Band of 150 students, how many of the students are involved in all these other activities. My guess would be much fewer.<<<

Again a generalization… I know from my personal experience that sharing students is true in almost every program, whether it be a large school or small. How much so depends upon the culture of the school. At my sister school (a number of years ago) a high number of their wind ensemble students were active in athletics (over 70%) while at my school a significant number were in drama (30%). And those were only the large constituents. Did it impact what we would do when, yes. Does it impact a smaller school more, possibly.

>>>When in comes to Contests, The Band has to share Saturdays with other school activities, that is why most of our Small schools may only compete once before they go to UIL Marching Contest in the fall. Also a school with 330 students comes from a Town off probably 2,000 people. Not exactly a large area to raise funds for trips.<<<

And smaller schools tailor what they do based on their resources. Is the presumption that money, or the money pool dictates the quality of a program? Yes, money makes the world go ‘round. In fact, the successes of TX bands, and the level of funding they receive from the state, I believe are directly related. But while it is a hurdle, of sorts, I do not believe it is a defining factor.

JLGorman writes…
>>> In TX which was the first state to have Region Marching Contests in the Nation (1936), and Florida which started in 1940 the purpose of these events was to allow small schools the opportunity to do things big schools can do.<<<

I’m not a scholar of marching band history, but I’m curious if that was truly the intent, or if it was to address the growing proliferation of schools and the need to cut down on travel distances. To be honest, nationwide, I still perceive a bias against small music programs.

JLGorman writes…
>>> Under the SCSBOA rules… a school like Allen with 715 students in the Band and school enrollment of 4200 students would compete against a School such as Robinson with a Band of 200 students from a school with 670 students. Guess who has the best chance to win.<<<

Now here’s where I begin to take exception to your assertions…are you saying that size is the primary factor, or money, or the activities cited before? For me, a program is quality based on what they do within their means. Based on the information provided, school and band sizes, I see no reason to make any assumption about which has the better chance to “win.” (…a term I abhor…)

JLGorman writes…
>>> I think the idea that Los Angeles High School with an enrollment of 4800 students can win Class 1A and people make a big deal of it. Los Angeles High School would have to compete in TX against schools like LD Bell, Churchill, Marcus, Flower Mound, etc.

In sports no one puts small schools up against much larger programs and expects them to be competitive, however that is what you are doing in CA with your Band Size. Sorry Directors, but as we would say in TX, you play against people your size.<<<

Now you’re just being nasty. I know you are familiar with the happenings in southern CA and LAUSD in particular. Just having a band in one of those schools is a challenge in and of itself. To demean what they are accomplishing simply because they are in a large school is pompous. Would I like to see them be able to do more? Of course. I think they would say the same thing. Funding for music is not the same around the country as it is in TX. In CA, and many other locations, adjudication associations have chosen their own ways to deal with that.
And to address your latter statement, no we don’t all “play against people your size.” Throughout athletics schools are moved out of like sized schools due to their achievements. At my current school, what should be 4A based on size is playing in 1A and Open because of their successes, schools 4 and 5 times our size. Does that take away from those larger schools? And a number of music programs do the same, placing themselves in larger band divisions.

JLGorman writes…
>>> This is why BOA is school enrollment classification Based. The very nature of the Band Size contest allows Bands to keep their numbers down in some cases to compete in an easier class. In TX we call Band Size classification events contests made for Schools that are large and have weak Bands.<<<

And did TMEA get together and make you their spokesman? I’ve judged a number of events in TX, from a variety of schools. I’ve found their Directors to be educators of extremely good character. This does not sound like a statement that would have come from any of them. Is it true that some programs in CA reduce their numbers to be in a “lower” class? Sadly, yes. And I hold those directors accountable for that choice. Is it widespread? That hasn’t been my experience.

I think you need to consider a larger picture of what music education is. Your post equates our profession with the athletic world, and I don’t think I’m OK with that…

6yr.bandvet writes…
>>> BOA is classified by school size because they push the musical education and growth. Schools should represent a percentage of students involved in music. They support the music organizations. The best bands …<<<

Why is the assumption that these other organizations, or create divisions based on band size, do NOT support musical education and growth? Would southern CA’s music scene suddenly expand and flourish if we required the Los Angeles High Schools to compete head to head with the Ayalas? I don’t think so. I would love to have more students in my programs. And to that end I am in conversations with those who have similar sized schools to figure out how they do it while we don’t. But forcing kids who are trying hard but don’t have classes, instruments, teachers, support, or just the numbers to compare themselves to juggernauts is not the way to make it happen.

I appreciate BOA. I’ve found their adjudication to be fair and comments useful. When I was teaching in a AAA school with a small band, we went…took our lumps, and learned. But I didn’t subject us to that every year. Just check-ins. Now that I’m in a A school, I could go, get trophies for being the only, or one of the only A bands there, but that’s not going to make us better in and of itself.

We go to these events to get better one event at a time, to improve on what we are doing with what we are given. I learn from watching ALL of the other programs. What can I improve, what can I do to increase numbers, what can I learn from the L.D. Bells and the Tarpon Springs, and what can fly here at MY school.

I truly admire what so many programs in TX, and around the country, achieve. But I also feel badly for those programs in TX, and around the country, that are nowhere near that level of success and are left by the wayside.

Ken


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