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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:26 am 
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Just to play devils advocate, the best voice over for me was Poway 93. LOVED IT.


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:51 am 
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wjs05 wrote:
Just to play devils advocate, the best voice over for me was Poway 93. LOVED IT.


I agree! Poway 93 was the bomb! (LIVE voiceover, too. None of that recorded stuff.)

Alan


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:24 am 
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Personally I loved the live recitation of the love poem in Crown's 2013 show....that whole section made for an incredible moment and the way the kid recited the poem, rising with the music etc was wonderful.

I agree that narration can be super annoying and unnecessary, but so can just about anything else in our design palette. Just like synthesized sounds can add a great new color to the mix, or can completely distract from everything else.


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:49 am 
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In my opinion, (from a judging standpoint) any recorded, sampled or otherwise not performed live sound has more impact on the effect scores than the performance scores. A group may increase their effect score with a well balanced amplified audio enhancement but the risk is always that the live performers will be heard less and the potential is certainly there for the performance score to decrease. In extreme cases, if you can't hear it, you can't give any credit for it. Cases in point... keyboard bass... can't hear the sousaphones on the field. Voice over... can't hear any of the wind sound coming from the ensemble. And so on...


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:55 am 
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wjs05 wrote:
8-ball wrote:
Sad. If I were a moderator I would have deleted this thread already.


Why delete this thread? Cause YOU don't agree with PSM? This is the kind of mentality that stagnated the forum comments for several years.


I appreciate you saying that. I took a look, and this is one of only fifteen threads on this forum that's had more than 60 posts since 2010, and there's been some interesting discussion here, so it would be a shame to kill the thread. I do feel like more people should post here and take strong positions and start arguing about things.

I guess he said that this thread should be deleted because he figured I was making a personal attack against designers. I mean, it was a hyperbolic, generalized criticism, but there was nothing personal in there. I still stand by what I said: voiceover is usually terrible, and we'd all be better off with less of it.

Prerecorded voiceover is uniquely problematic because it CHAINS the musicians and their performances to someone else's badly-written dialogue. Any story can be interesting - what matters is how you tell it. But you have to write it well first. And I'm telling you - even Sir Lawrence Oliver couldn't read these awful lines!

To put it another way: does anyone here honestly think that Plymouth-Canton 1999 would happen today without some stupid voiceover spelling it out for us?


Last edited by PSM on Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:53 am 
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I think we should all be able to make our point without vulg..ity.


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:10 pm 
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Ah... You're right, sorry.


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:23 pm 
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wjs05 wrote:
8-ball wrote:
Sad. If I were a moderator I would have deleted this thread already.

Thanks for the clarification on your words.

On a similar note, I have designed shows to purposely not use voice-overs. And then received feedback at the highest level encouraging them to be added. So...not always the designers original vision.



Why delete this thread? Cause YOU don't agree with PSM? This is the kind of mentality that stagnated the forum comments for several years.


Lol. No, because I think it was inappropriate to personally attack people on a public forum. (which you also could have read on the post)

I also think spouting negativity just to get hits is a sad use of time. Like I said, it took away all credibility of the conversation and further made me not want to be on here. Maybe I'll stick to the director's and staff area where people put their big-boy and big-girl pants on.


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:15 pm 
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It's not to get hits on the site. It's to get an actual conversation going. And it wasn't personal. I'm sorry that I gave you that impression.

Seriously though, the voice over thing is something that I strongly believe needs to be reconsidered. You haven't said anything about it, other than someone told you to put it in one time when you didn't want to. Why did they think you needed it in the show?


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:24 pm 
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This forum is not going to cause change. Like I said, if you want something done, contact someone about it.

That being said, I think there are a LOT of really great shows out there that use vo's. Sadly, there are programs that try to use them that either:

1. Don't have the knowledge of how to mix sound to come out of giant speakers. They also usually lack the knowledge to balance these with the sound coming from the field at those moments.

2. Don't have the equipment to pull it off effectively and use a long ranger or piano amp. They also usually lack the proper equipment to balance these with the sound coming from the field at those moments.

3. Don't have the design chops to incorporate vo's appropriately. (taking into account frequency, layering and thickness of scoring, etc.)

I believe it ignorant to want to ban something because you don't like it.

Hey Picasso, could you paint this really beautiful picture of the sky for me? But don't use the color blue, I don't like it...


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:26 pm 
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8-ball: I have a question. You said I'd lost credibility with you. That means I had credibility before. OK, granted, I made a pretty harsh statement, though I really didn't intend for anyone to take it personally, and I apologize for that - but other than that, do you actually disagree with anything substantive that I've said so far?

And I've not said ban voiceover, I want people to use it well or not at all. This is a writing problem, not a blend and balance or technical execution or mixing problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:32 pm 
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Yes, I was enjoying the conversation until it took an immature tone.

Anyway, as an adjudicator, my experience has led me to see more than just design problems. What I listed has sadly been done in performance...someone blasting vo's through a long ranger. It was painful to listen to and I felt bad having to lower the score (and reward to the performers) because of the balance issue. So what I listed is my opinion on all the problems.

I do agree: do it well or don't do it at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:48 pm 
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8-ball: you don't have to go to the directors forum. You're viewpoints and opinions are valuable and exciting. Sometimes feathers get ruffled when we talk about something that is near and dear to our hearts. Hopefully you stick around.


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:31 pm 
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Everyone: calm down. It's just a forum...for marching band...that involves high school kids...

Seriously, though: I learned long ago it's not worth getting offended about. I like thought-provoking discussion. Sometimes fights and mean words pop up, too. But it's those "ah ha!" moments that happen in the rough every once in a while that makes it worth it. I admire the fact that PSM wants to bring back to life what once was pretty stagnant (discussion-wise). Was immaturity involved? Maybe. But I am quick to forgive, and I hope the key players are, too.

Alan


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:04 am 
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Again jumping in with experience as only a band parent/spectator (and only for a few years):

1) Saw some routines that featured a V/O which, frankly, distracted me as I would start thinking what would the routine be without the explanation in the beginning...and it seemed they were unnecessary. And now there's routines featuring singing. One band that I saw only at a LAUSD championship featured a live singer. I don't know if they competed on any circuits otherwise.

I've seen one band that included vocals this year, but not sure if they were recorded or a live singer. There's another band that started using "costumes" instead of its iconic band uniform -- I know parents of musicians of that band and they're not too happy about that as there's additional costs for them (even if the much of the cost is coming from the band budget, the thought is that maybe that money could be better used).

So my thoughts are about some trends that might be trying to include some sort of "wow" factor that may not be necessary (just give us great music and a well done routine to watch).

2) about the give and take here, I belong to another forum that has nothing to do with school or music. Often when someone doesn't like the direction of the thread (that they disagree with what's being said), they'll say let's get this thread deleted. And believe me, sometimes the insults can fly pretty quickly there in violation of the official guidelines. So other than personal attacks, sometime it's good to allow for strong opinions. Good for me, as I can be quite opinionated.


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