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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:35 pm 
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Sigh.

If I've said it before, I've said it a thousand times. The voiceover thing is usually VERY badly done and it almost always makes things worse. There are a lot of people using them right now and it seems like it's just because they happen to have that tool in the toolbox. I personally believe that the proliferation of voiceover in marching band shows is the single worst trend in the activity over the last ten years.

As to both of your points:

I'm allowed to have my opinion and post it here in relative anonymity. As to fixing it by contacting judging organizations - first, they're not going to listen to me, second, this is not a circuit problem, this is a chasing scores problem. Nie mój cyrk, nie moje małpy


Last edited by PSM on Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:38 pm 
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That's great. This is a much more professionally worded statement of your opinion. But to personally attack designers so negatively on a open forum is sickening. You lost any credibility with me when you did so.


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:51 pm 
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Well, look, it's not at all a personal thing - a VERY good friend of mine uses voiceovers in his designs constantly and it drives me nuts, and I give him s**t over it all the time.

I know that it's an over-the-top way of saying it, but it's rather hard to draw people into responding on this forum, so I've been playing with the personality I present in order to stir up some action.

I really do think that voiceover is badly used in almost every case. I don't really think designers need to rethink their lives.


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:55 pm 
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Sad. If I were a moderator I would have deleted this thread already.

Thanks for the clarification on your words.

On a similar note, I have designed shows to purposely not use voice-overs. And then received feedback at the highest level encouraging them to be added. So...not always the designers original vision.


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:20 pm 
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I think that typically, it would be a very bad idea to shoehorn voiceover into a show for which it wasn't designed. Why on earth would anybody suggest that?


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:22 pm 
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It was incredibly difficult and took away valuable time that could have been used cleaning music and feet...


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:07 pm 
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Sounds like much more trouble than it was worth.


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:54 pm 
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Point system. Ranking. Whatever. I want to see the bands in California--from 1A bands to 6A bands (regardless of "adjudication organization") get better, and perform quality products. If that means use points--great. If that means ranking only--awesome. If that means use a festival rating--cool. I don't care what you use as long as quality is preached, and then taken to heart.

Right now I see small bands performing at more consistent excellence in WBA than elsewhere (ex. Live Oak, Independence, The Kings Academy).

I love, love, love that in BOA that small schools get a chance to go up against big schools. Top ten bands REGARDLESS of class (school size, or even band size, economic conditons, etc.) make it to finals. Anyone has a shot, including the 39-member Jackson Academy band that beat the 350-member Duncanville band at BOA Grand Nationals in 1993.

Alan aka Advocate for the Small Schools, and ALL the Schools


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:09 pm 
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Alan, I just saw your article on the '93 BOA finals and it seems incredible.

I could only find a heavily edited copy of that show (http://jastudents.org/jaweb/band/band93.php) and was wondering if you know of a complete recording that's floating around somewhere? There's a youtube playlist that has every band in finals from BOA that year - except for JA.


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:25 pm 
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PSM wrote:
Alan, I just saw your article on the '93 BOA finals and it seems incredible.

I could only find a heavily edited copy of that show (http://jastudents.org/jaweb/band/band93.php) and was wondering if you know of a complete recording that's floating around somewhere? There's a youtube playlist that has every band in finals from BOA that year - except for JA.


Every band EXCEPT Jackson Academy? That's a shame. I believe I have '93 finals on VHS or DVD (can't remember which) in a box somewhere. I'd be happy to send to you if I have it...or maybe I can post to Youtube or something (if legal).

What Jackson Academy did in '93 was quite groundbreaking for the time, but probably wouldn't fly in today's competitive marching band world. Well...it might. It would have to be done well, and differently. I have some ideas...

Anyways, I digress. Yes, incredible that JA topped Duncanville, which is rumored to be the reason Duncanville never competed in BOA again. (I think this still stands.)

Alan


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:13 pm 
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There are probably people from the 1993 Duncanville band who have kids who have by now graduated from college. You'd think they'd get over it already.


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:19 pm 
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In regards to the Jackson Academy victory over Duncanville, the score was only part of the story. I wrote Tom Shine, Director of Duncanville from the late 1980's to 2007 about what happened. Shine who lead Duncanville to 3 UIL State Marching Championships and the State Marching Contest every year that they could attend(it is every other year in TX) provided the following.

Yes, Duncanville was beaten by Jackson Academy, however this is not why Duncanville did not return. The next year Duncanville sent their entry fee in for the Grand Nationals, however their was a death among the Band Members about three weeks before they were to leave. The School District, along with the Band decided to cancel the trip. They asked BOA to refund part of the Entry Fee due to this tragedy. For some reason BOA did not decide to do so. At that time a decision was made not to compete again at BOA. It was strictly a decision made by the School District and the Band Program. Duncanville traveled to Japan the next year to play at the Japan Band Directors Convention and received standing ovations for their concert performances. Mr. Shine who is still an active judge in TX advised the refusal to refund some of the fee, not Jackson Academy lead to them not going back. He advised he has supported other Bands from TX gong to BOA. The situation was unfortunate. He did advise that Jackson Academy has not had further success against TX Bands. I think that every TX Band going to Grand Nationals is made aware of that event. Since that time no other TX Band has fallen to Jackson Academy. People in TX have long memories.

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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:15 pm 
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That sounds like a pretty terrible situation. Why did BOA make that decision? Was it a policy thing? Did Duncanville talk to the BOA president about it and he stuck to his guns, or was the decision made by some lower-level person without the authority to supersede policy - and didn't elevate the question above their pay grade?

So many questions.


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:20 am 
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PSM wrote:
Sigh.

If I've said it before, I've said it a thousand times. The voiceover thing is usually VERY badly done and it almost always makes things worse. There are a lot of people using them right now and it seems like it's just because they happen to have that tool in the toolbox. I personally believe that the proliferation of voiceover in marching band shows is the single worst trend in the activity over the last ten years.

As to both of your points:

I'm allowed to have my opinion and post it here in relative anonymity. As to fixing it by contacting judging organizations - first, they're not going to listen to me, second, this is not a circuit problem, this is a chasing scores problem. Nie mój cyrk, nie moje małpy



I don't know about the voice over work for BOA bands but The Cadets 2008 and 2014 shows are just GHASTLY with the voice over. 2014 is just putrid in particular cause they had the guy MIME the voice over that was recorded.


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 Post subject: Re: Controversial post - points are a useful lie.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:23 am 
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8-ball wrote:
Sad. If I were a moderator I would have deleted this thread already.

Thanks for the clarification on your words.

On a similar note, I have designed shows to purposely not use voice-overs. And then received feedback at the highest level encouraging them to be added. So...not always the designers original vision.



Why delete this thread? Cause YOU don't agree with PSM? This is the kind of mentality that stagnated the forum comments for several years.


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