SCSBOA CHAMPIONSHIPS.

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Band Dude 16
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SCSBOA CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Post by Band Dude 16 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:22 am

Now that Champs are just two short weeks away, I feel like the best ensemble on that day will be the champion. If a lower seated band has a great performance they could go home with Gold.

Having attended three shows this last weekend there will b some upsets from lower seated bands.

The bands that scored high at the end of the season will score well at championships if they have great runs.

Look for upsets in 1A, 2A, 3A and 4A on December 1st.

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Re: SCSBOA CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Post by GHSTrumpetDad » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:08 am

In my limited experience (the last 6 years) in 4A, the seedings at SCSBOA Championships HEAVILY influence the overall outcome; although the top spot is usually up for grabs between the top 2 or 3 bands if they earn it on that night. Bands never seem to move up more than 3 (or rarely 4) places at most by the end of the night (Down can be another story....). Scores on Championship night are not based solely on the performance that night - but also on the perception of a Band's overall season based on their accumulated scores - and maybe rightly so; that's a matter for debate. IF the scores accurately reflected all the bands relative performances fairly.

Admittedly, the top 2 or 3 Bands have usually deserved the highest scores going in....But, IMHO there are often a few bands lurking lower that are seeded way higher than deserved due to "cherry-picking" competitions where higher scores are given out (a 3A or 4A band will score higher at a smaller Comp where the top 5A or 6A bands are not performing - look at the data, it's pretty obvious). I have also been really surprised this year at the wide swings in scoring range vs. time of the season (early or late) at the events we have attended.

Last year the judges at Championships in 4A did do a better job, I feel, in identifying those over-seeded bands and scored them accordingly. It was sad to see a couple bands who were riding high going in based on inflated scores, only to be crushed by the score they got at Championship.

My biggest complaint, however, is this: by having some bands "over-seeded", some of the lower ranked bands are "under-seeded" and will have their score suppressed due to an early performance time.....just the way it is, I guess. I have no doubt at all if, by some weird chance, that the #12 seeded band had the best performance of the night, they would not even crack the top 3 in scoring.

Bottom line - events you choose to attend will have a big impact on your season-end ranking. If you are a smaller band and want a higher score, don't perform on a night when the big boys will perform after you.

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Re: SCSBOA CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Post by magicsax22 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:38 am

As a director and someone who has sat in the judges box before at a show (to learn more about how the process works) I will say that at longer shows (15 to 20 plus bands) there may be some score creep throughout the night, but with there only being 12 in each division at Champs I think people believing that the performance order matters are just being silly.

A good judging panel will place a band properly regardless of when they perform. And for those of us who might think that all the judges go in with preconceived notions about the bands, remember that SCSBOA brings in a lot of outside people to judge for Championships to help alleviate this exact problem. People who judge for DCI or are band directors at some of the big BOA bands etc. The raw numbers might get a bit affected by the performance order....i.e. a great band goes on first and is scored a bit lower in music than they should have been....then everyone else might see lower music scores than they would have if that band went on later...but again that doesn't mean the rankings are different. I've been to plenty of shows where my group, though a 1A performing early, was able to outscore groups in larger divisions and I've seen other groups do it plenty of times as well.

By the end of the night at Champs you might see some upsets, but they usually aren't huge and part of that is just the fact that many times the scores throughout the season have not been extremely close, and the bands hit a certain point where they just aren't going to get better. We all have limits to how well our groups can play, or march, or spin flag etc, and some of us hit that plateau before the last competition. Now, in the 1A division who knows what will happen. Lots of close scores in there, lots of groups who have never competed with each other at the same show, etc.

I will also say that the grid system does lead to some interesting seedings sometimes, and that yes, some shows throughout the season have some wonky scores. You get those times when a panel has an overly generous judge on it, or one that is very tough with his numbers....or when you get a generally really tough panel. There are also those shows where the weather is wrecking havoc on the bands and music scores suffer as a result or the field is in poor condition and the visual scores suffer as a result.

All in the nature of the beast when it comes to a subjectively scored form of competition, just like sometimes people feel the wrong person/team won in events like diving, gymnastics, figure skating, etc.

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Re: SCSBOA CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Post by Jim Bunselmeier » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:23 am

One thing I have noticed is a few bands have changed classes this year. One standout group is Charter Oak. They have been a perennial top three in 1A now they go into 2A and have the best seeding going in.

There are other bands that have moved and it will be interesting to see how they do in their new class. It is not automatically easier in a smaller class.

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Re: SCSBOA CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Post by resetdoitagain » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:34 am

Scores on Championship night are not based solely on the performance that night - but also on the perception of a Band's overall season based on their accumulated scores - and maybe rightly so; that's a matter for debate.
They shouldn't and they don't. However, it may seem like they do, because scores throughout the season are, unsurprisingly, quite a good general indicator of show quality.

As to your comments evaluating various judging panels over the years, in the style of Chick Hearn, I'll say, there are lots of judges in the grandstands, and only about eight of them are getting paid. Frankly, I've never been in the stands at a show and overheard booster parents in awe of x band's consistent marching technique, upset about y band's balance issues, or ecstatic about z band's flawless releases (and that's the easy stuff to get right). Meanwhile, comments on how "pretty" or "exciting" a show was are dime-a-dozen, and armchair quarterbacks abound. No doubt, someone will be keeping track of how many drops there are in the guard.

Are the judges perfect? No, not by any means. But they're a heck of a lot better than your average band parent. That's not to say their opinion isn't important - marching band is first and foremost about entertainment, not competition. Just keep in mind that the competition side isn't necessarily run on just the aspects of the performance that are easiest for untrained ears and eyes to notice.

Edited to tone it down a bit.
Last edited by resetdoitagain on Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:45 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: SCSBOA CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Post by Jim Bunselmeier » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:35 am

Here are my predictions for top three in each class:

6A - Chino, Etiwanda, Arcadia (easiest class to pick)
5A - Los Osos, Granada Hills, Riverside Poly
4A - South Hills, West Ranch, Valencia
3A - Azusa, Colony, Valencia
2A - San Marcos, Saugus, Charter Oak
1A - Canyon, Los Angeles, Gabrielino (2nd easiest to pick)

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Re: SCSBOA CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Post by Chaporch » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:55 am

GHSTrumpetDad wrote:Scores on Championship night are not based solely on the performance that night
This statement may be your opinion, but it is 100% wrong. I have been on the Championships panel in the past and this is NOT true. Bands are judged soley on that night's performance.

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Re: SCSBOA CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Post by Euphman » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:07 pm

Jim Bunselmeier wrote:Here are my predictions for top three in each class:

2A - San Marcos, Saugus, Charter Oak
San Marcos' scores run the gamut from low 60's to high 70's, while Saugus & Charter Oak are consistently in the 70's. This should be an interesting result considering San Marcos will perform anywhere from the 8th to 5th slots depending on their draw, while Saugus/Charter Oak will be in the final 4. I tend to believe that performance slot does affect the outcome somewhat, so it will be interesting to see how the final scores stack up in the Top 3.

Good luck to all 8-)

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Re: SCSBOA CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Post by 6yr.bandvet » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:25 pm

Is it a 1-4 Draw, 5-8 Draw, 9-12 Draw? Or a 1-6 Draw, 7-12 Draw?

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Re: SCSBOA CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Post by mfisk » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:48 pm

6yr.bandvet wrote:Is it a 1-4 Draw, 5-8 Draw, 9-12 Draw? Or a 1-6 Draw, 7-12 Draw?
Last year was 1-6 and 7-12. The year before was the other way.
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Re: SCSBOA CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Post by mfisk » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:49 pm

Does anyone know if I want to go to Warren High School 1A/4A, do I have to pay for 1A and 4A or will the wristband get me in for both? Thanks.
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Re: SCSBOA CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Post by Euphman » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:50 pm

mfisk wrote:Does anyone know if I want to go to Warren High School 1A/4A, do I have to pay for 1A and 4A or will the wristband get me in for both? Thanks.
Separate shows, separate fees. It's a fund raiser, so I've personally never minded paying for separate shows.

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Re: SCSBOA CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Post by ODannyBoi » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:59 pm

Euphman wrote:
San Marcos' scores run the gamut from low 60's to high 70's, while Saugus & Charter Oak are consistently in the 70's.
San Marcos only finished their show in time for Oxnard (11/10). With that finished show, they jumped into the 70's and then beat Saugus at Moorpark.

As for Charter Oak, they had a great show at South Hills; IMO they were shorted points-wise (I kinda think all the 2A bands were, but I AM biased).

Both San Marcos and Charter Oak were 1A powerhouses, and they are quite used to duking it in the finals. I suppose in this instance, taking the place of perennial divisional rival Los Angeles (1A), is perennial divisional contender Saugus (2A). It's going to be a great show. I'm just glad we made it back on the ticket.
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Re: SCSBOA CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Post by Fore! » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:39 pm

Seedings are 1-4, 5-8 & 9-12 - then a drawing was held in each group of 4 to determine performance order. The same performance order was used for 1A - 5A

Since there are only 9 6A bands, the seeding was 1-5 and 6-9

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Re: SCSBOA CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Post by pike988 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:54 am

[quote="Jim Bunselmeier"]Here are my predictions for top three in each class:

6A - Chino, Etiwanda, Arcadia (easiest class to pick)

REALLY? I guess that's why we march to see.

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